Rapier survey: Other comments on skill rank

Results and comments from the Aug/Sep 2003 survey.

	Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Other comments from the skill rank question
	Updated: May 24, 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for your amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

To get YOUR name listed with YOUR comments, just give me permission. See the e-mail button and information at the bottom of the page. Let me know your SCA name and kingdom (as of Aug/Sep 2003), and I'll add the attribution to your entries.

# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

The comments below were sent in response to Question 28.

Respondents share a variety of personal information and observations, particularly on current status (age, inactivity) and differences regarding kingdom, gender, and format (tourney vs. melee).

The comments

Note: Any remarks in the comments below from Yves look like this.

The main topics below are: Skill & speed, Practice & training,
Out of practice, Lystes, tourneys, & melees, Differences, and Age.

More comments on this topic are on separate pages.
See the links at the bottom of this page.

Choice pick

Φ Mid. ~ Someday I hope to be someone that others really want to fight, because it's a fun fight. ``Catalin

Why “Here for the Fun” was changed to “Velocity-challenged”

Φ An Tir ~ I am NOT Here For The Fun. I want to learn more. Just because I'm slow doesn't make me less credible. ``Laurin

Someone who actually is “here for the fun”

Φ Caid ~ I'm too new and perhaps too old to be any good right now and maybe never will be but I enjoy it.

Age

Φ Anst. ~ A compromise between what I was and what I am. Once upon a time I was good/excellent, but my health is not good.

Φ Art. ~ The last few years I've slowed down some, (it must be being a grandma) -- or more accurately, my mundane life has become so busy I simply haven't had the time to devote to rapier fighting that I used too, and the lack of practice shows, but I still love to do it when I can fit it in, and plan on playing as long as my body holds up. . . ``KyneWynn

Φ Aten. ~ Hey...I resemble that remark! :-) I'm now 51 and due primarilly to my current personal situation I have not had much opportunity to practice and maintain, let alone improve my skills for the last year. Once that situation changes, even at 51, I have every intention of improving further and getting back to where I can regularly keep the "young and fast" ones running and dieing! ``Egan

Φ Atl. ~ At one point, I would've said superb. Now? Not so much.

Φ Atl. ~ Being old does present certain problems in fencing, but i won the over40 tourney at pensic in '02 at the age of 51. ``Rufus

Φ Atl. ~ If I were able to train I feel that I would move up to the Excellent category fairly quickly. Even with little to no practice, I am still fast and deadly, although age is starting to tell and my knee surgery really put a kink in my fun time this year. ``Nikolai

Φ Atl. ~ I used to be hotter and won a few big ones in the mid 90's. I'm a bit bigger and slower now, but on the up swing again as the kids have gotten older. I generally make up for the speed factor through age and tereachery (ie.- experience and sneaky, nasty that are sometimes period).

Φ Caid ~ I have slowed down with age and illnesses. I used to be one of the top fencers in the Kingdom (Premire WSC), but I'm much slower now. I still do well in tourneys and still make the semis- and finals from time to time. ``Kelan

Φ Caid ~ I was stating to drop from my peak performance (I'm 43 years of age) but two years ago I took up blacksmithing. I have replaced speed with streath in many ares of my form. And I just won a major Kingdom lists. I am in as good as shape as I can ever remember being in my life. ``Njall [Hee hee... reminds me of certain ads/adverts for exercise equipment.]

Φ Eald. ~ Thirty years ago, when I started fencing (mundanely) there were damned few as fast as me. Nowadays, I just try to ignore pure speed and work on accuracy and calibration instead. ;-) ``Nicholas

Φ East ~ I might be one of those older ones:-) On a good day, I'll be Superb, on a bad day only Excellent. The good days are coming fewer and farther between, though ... Still, I can only think of one or two fencers in the East that I can't go at least 50/50 with, and we've got a few decent fencers here.

Φ East ~ Well, I'm one of those older fencers :). I used to be good to excellent, by your ratings, but health problems and just slowing down in general have lowered my rating a bit. I'm still very good in a melee, and good with a dagger too, although my lessened speed is a real annoyance these days. But, I play and I still love the game, and always will. ``Jeanne

Φ Mer. ~ I am cheating a bit and ranking myself based upon how I was doing before the tendonitis (as I've been able to do very little since). I would not call myself "Excellent", but based on your criteria......

Φ Mid. ~ I think I've reached my peak. Got started when I was over 45.

Φ Nor. ~ I started foil fencing in my late 40's, and authorized in SCA rapier & rapier/dagger at age 51 last year. Wish I would have known about this sooner! LOTS of fun; still trying to find my 'style' ("Age and treachery...." Heh.) Rank--doesn't that have something to do with an opponent's odor??? ``Maisy

Φ Tri. ~ I'm one of those over-the-hill fighters. I used to be a bit better but was never a "hot stick." I'm actually much better in melee (2 years of one weekend practice a month tells) either commanding a unit or anchoring the line.

Φ Tri. ~ 58 years, arthritic knees, shoulders thumbs. I was not a very good strip fencer, even at the age of 20, however I loved the art and discovered that if I could use both hands, things became much more interesting for me and my opponents. I tell my students and household members that if they study with me , they will probably never be pretty fighters, but they will learn to use a sword; they will know more about their bodies and abilities, their self image will improve and they will be more aware of what happens around them in order to protect themselves. I believe that I am a better teacher, especially now and perhaps for the last 15 years, than I am a swordsman. This is frustrating but I will continue to play until I cannot. A stool is already part of my standard equipment and I suspect that if a wheelchair was required, I would still have the desire to at least teach. The sword is a part of my life. ``Cullen

Φ West ~ I'm getting seriously rather late and have a brace of bad knees so I'm not terribly mobile. la Destreza is what I'm best suited for but the current rules set severely limits the effectiveness of the Spainish style. ``Alail

Analyze this!

Φ East ~ I'm physically decently quick but I pick up new things slowly. This is mostly because my entire life seems anylatical sometimes (I'm an engineer) and there are times I simply don't want to break down my fencing technique because I'm sick of analyzing things. I just want to have fun! I do however retain things well once I get them. I use a lot of learned muscle memory right now when I fence which might be a weakness sometimes. I think I'd get better if I drilled at home more but I've been going to 3-4 practices a week plus events this season and it's hard to do. I also suspect if I cut out a practice I would focus more and get better quicker. ``Astridr

Differences (gender, kingdom)

Φ AEth. ~ I have a background in dance, which helps somewhat with fencing, but I'm also working on overcoming the temptation to "fight like a girl" ;) I'm probably learning slower because I don't want to embarrass myself by doing "illegal" things -- the ones that have the potential to save my actual life in an actual street fight but are not etiquette in the fencing list. ``Miriel

Φ Caid ~ In kingdom I'm the lower end of Median, out of kingdom, a bit higher. Probably a result of people in kingdom knowing how I fight (them having taught me everything I know). ``Leonarda

Φ Caid ~ I'm much better at non-double elim tournements (round robin, etc) and during practice (related to adrenaline flow for women). I have quit fighting double-elims and focus on teaching, pick-ups, and larger tactical melees/tournaments. ``Arabella

Φ West ~ Going from the Outlands, where fencing is prevelant to the West, where it is...not has increased my skill level to the next higher. I felt that it was proper to grade myself against by the Outlands instead of my current kingdom. ``Staffan

“Donmakers”

Φ Outlands - While I do not rank high in the fencing comunity in my kingdom several of the fencers that I taught now do. I am also in frequent discussions with the whitescarves of the outlands on the topics of training methods and why we do what we do. ``Diana

Read more about this on the Teaching page. (Q 17,18)

Dons & White Scarves

Φ AEthelmearc - I hate that question. The Dons I play with inform me I'm about the good level but I'd prefer to say I'm about median. But, they've been doing this longer than I have so I'll defer to them. ``Illadore

Enjoyment

Φ Tri. ~ Its not about the trophy, do you like what you do and have achieved?

Goal

Φ Loch. ~ I am a beginner, I think I will be good one day, but I have a long way to go.

Φ Loch. ~ I am by no means the best or most knowledgable in the SCA, but I shall not rest till I am! :) I probebly wont feel like resting even then! :) *LOL* ``Marc

Hard to say

Φ An Tir ~ It comes and it goes it seems i don't know currently. ``Cormac

Φ Anst. ~ Only comment here is it's hard for me to rate, since you are often using a competetive and a non-competetive standard. So I'm not positive how to choose. I would say that in fully competetive situations I probably rate closer to Good (performance anziety? ;)) while in most situations not involving a list I probably rate much closer to excellent. I guess I feel the average would just push me a tiny notch closer to teh Excellent than towards Good in the overall criteria, even though I don't think I've really won any major tournaments based strictly on kill counts. ``Lionardo

Φ East ~ Hard to answer this, as I've fenced much better in informal practices than in the two tourneys I've done -- so chose the middle.

Φ Loch. ~ We are fairly isolated here so have a limited number of people to compsir against.

Φ Out. ~ I had a relly hard time answering this last question,,,,,,I asked 4 different people where they would rank me, and they all said somewhere between the las t......the problem is, I am fast, I am accurate, in a melee, I usually clear 10 to 1, but Ialthough I have won many smaller tourneys, I have never come in number 1, I always finish in the top 3 though, and usually get put out by the winner. as far as the muscles knowing what to do, the world moving in slow motion, and everything going right, that is true.........I don't however even pretend to think that the rapier society here regards me as one of the best in the kingdom......aside from those who know me pretty well, I doubt that most would even know me by name.

Φ Tri. ~ That last question is hard since I only get to fight out of kingdom once/year and its hard to tell how skill levels compare from one kingdom to the next. I feel comfortable with the superb rating within kingdom though and have won 3/3 champion's battles that I have fought at war so I guess I'll stick with it. ``Silvain

Φ [Withheld] ~ Your hodgepodge of speed, skill and victories makes it impossible for me to give an accurate answer. Some elements from each of Good, Excellent, and Superb apply to me - but I rarely win a lyst. Over the years I have beaten most of the top fencers around here. Often I am asked to be the melee commander. Typically I lead my troops to victory. [Well, sounds like an "Excellent" rating to me.]

Lystes, tourneys & melees

Φ An Tir ~ I do think I am a better fighter than most, but tend to be forgotten in the south due to my preference to teach/marshal up north, and when I do go south, it's usually to fight the best as often as possible (last event (coronet), I had excellent scores against everyone..but don Guidobaldo, sigh, I said I'm good, not incredible...sigh [...]every war scenario I have led or been in the command structure in the past 2 Clintons, we've won, and this I accredit to my crew mostly, but I can take pride in knowing that I taught them to keep me alive ;)

Φ Anst. ~ Heh, in this kingdom you have to be GOD to win one much less two tournaments. I would have to say that in actuality I am a good fighter with the qualification that I have made it to the final round on several occasions. But in all fairness it is because I have an unusual advantage, I fight left handed. The first 3 to 4 bouts are won because it is not expected and I get the first shot in clean. ``Chiara

Φ Atl. ~ I've only been in three tourneys, so I'm still getting used to the format.

Φ Atl. ~ I do a lot better in practices than I do in tournaments, and I usually do better in melees than in standard tourneys. Since it's depressing to lose all the time even when I'm not trying to win, I tend to avoid tournament fighting. ``Rois

Φ Atl. ~ I wish the above list was separated in melee / duello categories. While I haven't spent too much time in the lists in duello tourneys, I do about average there. On the Melee field, fighting with those I've trained with, I do very well. We are typically the last left alive. ``Marcus

Φ Caid ~ I do *much* better in melee (would rank myself as "good" on that basis alone) than in tournament. I think there are a number of folks out there like me on this. Any trends here? ``Grainne

Apparently, at least a few people say likewise...

Φ East ~ I don t fight in turnaments.

Φ East ~ Doesn't really apply as written. It's based way too much on tourney results and I don't like or fence tourneys. They are too stilted and come with too much baggage. I fence pick ups and challenges around the list area. On a good day, I'll have a bout a 60-70% kill ratio, but I prefer to fence multiple bouts, with multiple kills rather than dead-and-finish tournies.

Φ Loch. ~ In melees I don't do well. Melee is new to Lochac. I can wipe a list in some baronies without dropping a fight. Against the Guildmasters and Don's I'll beat all of them some of the time, but on the whole am outclassed and some can easily beat me with no dramas. I'll still get em sometimes. ``Gregory

Φ Nor. ~ I take more out in melee than in tournaments [...] I would almost say I rate Good, except I have seen some really good fencers in our kingdom and while they complament me offten on how much and how fast I am learning I would not say I could take 2 out of 3 on them at any point yet, good day or not. ``Gabrielle

Φ Tri. ~ I have never fought in a rapier tourney amd probably never will. I get all my time in pick ups.

Φ Tri. ~ Under Superb I would add but I can and do occasionally loose even to a beginning fighter, in SCA combat on any given day anyone can win against anyone else... I rarely care if I win a tourney and I found I do far better if I simply fight and have fun vs count wins and concern myself with tourney standings... I've won more tourneys than I remember winning if that makes sense, and I've had more fun loosing a tourney fight that was fought well. ``Porthos

Φ Tri. ~ Your ranking system is hard. I fall in the good category for everything but winning a lyste. That's tough down here - small kingdom = truly superb fighters are ALWAYS in every lyste and we only hold non-Don Lysts on very rare occaisons. It's a small kingdom so you have the same pool of fighters 90% of the time, and it's no joke that the same person will win ALL the lysts for year or more straight. My Don is currently the guy who wins everything - from all the local small event lysts to the kingdom championships. Besides that, I don't get to fight in lysts as often as I would like to. I have responsibilities at 99% of the events I attend, and even though I BEG for my classes and things at local events to NOT be scheduled opposite the lystes, it happens about 50% of the time. =( ``Dulcia

Newcomer

Φ Atl. ~ I'm still a newbie! And I don't practice enough. But I need to get the knees fixed before I can improve.

Φ Caid ~ I'm still pretty new at this. I fought my first tournaments just this past month.

Φ Drach. ~ As a newbie, I haven't fenced ina ny tournaments yet, as I haven't been autorised. However, I would consider myself a medium-skilled learner, with self-consiousness and impatience my biggest impediments to moving ahead.

Φ Tri. ~ I'm still learning how to watch that "internal replay" and haven't quite figured out that I should be attacking and defending all at the same time! Either one works, just not simultaneously. ``Melangell

No rating

Φ Aten. ~ I don't actually consider myself a fighter anymore. I practice. I marshal and help others as best I can. But I haven't entered a tournament or a war point melee in 4 years (purely personal reasons). If it's a practice I fight. If it's a "this counts for something" combat then I marshal. ``Wallace

Out of practice

Φ An Tir ~ I [was on] maternity leave ... so some of my time that I would have been fighting I wasn't allowed to... instead I marshalled.

Φ Anst. ~ I've been out of fencing for the past year due to wrist/elbow problems.

Φ Anst. ~ I am hampered at this time due to back surgery early in the summer. ... Ask me again in a year, when I'm medically allowed to fight and have regained my conditioning, and I will be able to answer this with up to date info. ``Henri

Φ Atl. ~ I haven't been very active for the last 6 months because I'm in Kuwait. [He has since returned.] However, for a while I pretty much ran the fencing practices in my canton, and I'd say, with all modesty aside, I'm probably in the top part of the Median category. ``Renard

Φ Drach. ~ If I had been asked this question a year ago I would probably have placed myself between median and good. ``Kári

Φ I've had nobody to practice with since coming to Drachenwald (Vulcan's Forge, Sicily). My skills are most likely gone, though I was a fair fencer when in Caid.

Φ Loch. ~ I've slacked off somwehat - at my peak (about 2 years ago), I would have rated myself as Excellent.

Φ Mid. ~ I only fence once a year (or there about) any more, but when I fenced regularly I was above average.

Φ Out. ~ Have been better. This year I have spent alot of my time smacking people with sticks, trying to learn heavy combat. I have been considered Excellent, I would think. ``Volker

Plateau

Φ Drach. ~ I love to fence and I have recently felt myself overcoming a difficult plateau, which has renewed my zeal. ``Muirghein

Φ Mer. ~ I am improving. I have currently plateaued due to mundane circumstances. ``Leon

Politics

Φ Caid ~ Way too many "Dons" and "White Scarves". It's not what you know, it's who you...

Φ Mid. ~ I've been at odds over a variety of issues in my current Kingdom over the past few years, and a remark has been made that I'd be 'taken more seriously' if I 'won more tournys', regardless of the merits of any arguments. Mores the pity for this narrow minded attitude. You might care to see if you can discover if this is a common trait amongst SCA combatants, rapier combatants in general or if it's just a 'kill the messenger' syndrome. ``Grimkirk

Practice & training

Φ Caid ~ i havent been able to do anything but practice.. i am told that i am very fast but just need to get my techinqe down.. and normally on a good day i would probably rank myself as good on a avrage day as median..

Φ Caid ~ I rarely enter SCA tournaments, although I did win a list once. Based on the folks I've fenced with at WMA practices and where they stand in the SCA ranks, I'm pretty good for my (limited) experience. Frankly, this has more to do with the lack of organized training in the SCA- those who have been studying regularly (not just sparring) for years are so far beyond me it's not even funny. If I could name just one thing I value about SCA fencing, it has been the opportunity to meet those folks and study with them. ``David

Φ Drach. ~ But I've only just made it up from velocity-challenged. :)

Φ Mer. ~ Well, considering I got authorized ... [a few months before the survey], I'm actually doing pretty ok, but I have a lot to learn. Hopefully I'll improve in rank once I fully flesh out some techniques I've been working on.

Skill & speed

Φ Eald. ~ You use speed as a major criteria for ability, I feel that is very flawed. Speed is only one component of ability, there is also agility, blade control, ability to control the fight, strategy, ablility to understand your opponent, abiltity to predicit reactions to your actions, variety in blade attacks, variety in defence, the list goes on. I do not win by speed. I am quick but mostly my ability comes from cleverness, strategy, blade control, and experience. ``Wilhelm

Φ Nor. ~ You seem to imply that speed equals proficiencies in your question on self-ranking of skill. I have seen plenty of excellent/superb fencers who are not fast -- on the contrary, they are measured, thoughtful, and execute their moves with amazing control while not rushing or relying on "lightning." If you rework this, think about taking the emphasis off of "fast" and replace it with "good" or "skilled" or some other less specific term. ``Simon

Φ West ~ Often better than fair, in actual success, but more due to training outside of literal SCA rapier training. Also, I don't understand the concept of "against someone faster". Against someone more skilled, yes, but faster? I'm more likely to be beaten by someone more skilled and slower than someone less skilled and faster.

I think that most unskilled fencers and spectators see fencing quality more in terms of speed than anything else. They can detect fast movement, but not the subtleties of skilled fencing. Sufficient experience and development provide mental speed - quick perception and analysis.

Also, though one might have skill and muscle memory, one's muscles need to move a sufficient distance in sufficient time in order to defend oneself against a fast attack.

As noted elsewhere, due to responses like those above, I improved the wording in the question during the survey to include "more skilled".

Steel

Φ Drach. ~ I am combining SCA fencing with steel combat re-enactment.

Teaching

Φ Eald. ~ I'm a reasonably good fencer, but a much better teacher. ``Albrecht

Φ Tri. ~ I am not a hot stick but given a chance I can make many and I live to teach.

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Question 27 Ideal practices	Main page - skill rank	Question 29 The survey

Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Other comments from the skill rank question