Results and comments from the Aug/Sep 2003 survey.

	Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Ideal Practices
	Updated: May 24, 2005

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Policy blurb

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» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for your amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

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# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

According to the survey responses SCA fencing is NOT the same all over, even regarding the Ideal Practice.

Question 27

Describe your ideal local SCA practice or training program.

The "Ideal Practice"

Note that people differ in their standards. Note also that the responses regarding actual practices/training reflect one person's impression of what it was like. This may have been long before this survey (Aug-Sep 2003).

The comments

Note: Any remarks in the comments below from Yves look like this.

More comments on this topic are on separate pages.
See the links at the bottom of this page.
 

Choice picks

Φ An Tir ~ I would like to see an illustrated manual on general SCA fencing showing "katas" - similar to Karate ... Orchestrated scenerios covering a series of parries, attacks and footwork that one could run through solo.

Φ An Tir ~ Experienced fencers organizing among themselves to train new comers, and not just armor them up and send them out after a five minute drill. Icky. I would like to see a series of classes that the fighters could take turns teaching, cycling them through to catch more people as they come in. I'd like to see some practice time dedicated to teaching techniques or styles to each other (yes, teaching the "enemy"). I'd like to see more area and time dedicated to drills and slow work for partners, and not have slow worked looked on as remedial work. And at least once a month have the local group practice war band/ melee tactics. And while I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony too.  ``Gabrielle

Φ Mid. ~ There would be small groups working on a particular aspect of fighting. Everyone would be expected to teach something, both to give them the experience of breaking down what they do, and so the other fighters (even the experienced ones) would have the experience of learning from someone else.  ``Luisa

N/A

Φ Aten. ~ Doesent really matter.
Φ Aten. ~ I don't really have a preference. I tend to follow along with whatever is going on at the time.  ``Bethia

Φ Atl. ~ Not sure.  ``Ihsan
Φ Mer. ~ Don't have an ideal.
Φ Nor. ~ n/a.
Φ Tri. ~ Nonexistant.

TBD

Φ Anst. ~ I haven't thought of it yet.  ``Doré
Φ Art. ~ TBD.
Φ Mid. ~ Working on developing one.

Flexible, freeform

Φ An Tir ~ Very simple...
novice: learn basics, practice control, ask questions, have fun
beginner: practice basics, retain control, ask questions, have fun
advanced: practice/teach basics, teach/retain control, answer/ask questions, lead by example, pass on what you have learned, have more fun

Φ Art. ~ As long as it contains about 15-20 percent slow work/drill, some fast sparring, and melee practice, I'm happy. The most important aspect, however, I believe to be a group oral critique afterward so that new concepts and ideas can be cemented into fighters minds.  ``Nathaniel

Φ Caid ~ Ideal? Uuuhhhh, show me one. It would change with each day.  ``Dalen

Φ Mid. ~ Don't have an ideal, must fit the practice to who is on the practice site.

Φ Mid. ~ A group of 5 to 10 fencers meeting twice a week or more. Spending some of the time on drills, but most of the time fencing and working on different styles. A free form teaching environment where people can feel free to give and recieve comments to improve themselves can be nice.

Φ Out. ~ I enjoy an informal practice with fighters of all levels so that one can mingle and learn from many rather then an organized this is how we all learn to fight style. This allows the new fencers to see what works foor them rather then have to do drills that do not work.  ``Diana

Φ Tri. ~ Tough question. All practice should be talyored to the experience of the particiapants. This requires a pratice to be felxable enough to allow a beginner to learn and improve while also keeping your experienced fighters intrested and involved. Not always an easy thing to do.  ``Cathal

Focus, structure

Φ AEth. ~ Would love to see other experienced fencers as well as White Scarves (equivalent) encouraged to conduct drills and captain practice melee teams. Having seen a number of different practices at this point, I think that structure really builds community, so I strongly approve of classes, drills and having someone in charge who knows what's going on.  ``Sasha

Φ AEth. ~ One master runs the practice. several underlings help teach groups while the master holds individual teaching sessions. these individual sessions should be 15-20 min per person. the lesson varies with the experience of the pupil.. at the masters discretion. after a good lesson the pupil should need to rest then put into practice what he/she has been taught right away to cement the lesson.  ``Parion

Φ An Tir ~ Really excellent, taught by three or more Dons. Well organized program, plus bouts. Probably 20-40 in attendence each week. Cost is #2,00 per person.  ``Gerhard

Φ Anst. ~ A constant Academy of fence.

Φ Anst. ~ This dates back to Ansteorra's epee days, but it generally works http://pages.sbcglobal.net/blyle/escrime.htm  [To me, this is more overview than practice schedule.]

Φ Caid ~ William Wilson's outline in Art of Defense.  ``David

Φ The training program for the Cross and Dragon company based in Caid.  ``John James

Φ Caid ~ Well lighted. Socializing and general b.s. sessions kepted to a minimum! My experiece is that in virtually all the practices I've been to more time is spent socializing than actual practice. As a result I stopped attending.

Φ East ~ It's ideal to offer an 8-10 week beginners class for new people. Do it 2-3 times each year and encourage people to wait until they begin to join. Then they go through it all with a group, and they have drilling partners and people they get to know and work with. The teachers are less stressed, because everyone is covering the same material at the same time. When they are done, they are ready for limited play and practice before trying to authorize. We have run classes many times, and they have all worked out very well. We have a much higher retention rate that way. The new kids feel like they are really part of something.  ``Brokk

Φ Mer. ~ We should probably formally go back to the original ten class system. [I do think we could use some training and authorization standards, but with something better than the old curriculum.]

Φ Mid. ~ Having a structure (no matter how much I dislike drilling!) and a guide to learn from.

Φ Mid. ~ We'd have practices every other week, an experienced teacher, preferrably Warder of the Bronze Ring (or two) visiting, helping me teach. I will have learned how to teach the newbies that are showing up suddenly, and use a learning plan make sure they get some semi-formal training in footwork and sword drills instead of just trying to learn by doing at full speed somehow, like I did. We will alternate this with increasingly faster sparring and full speed bouts. I do not subscribe to the view that newbies shouldn't do full speed. That's how I caught the "rapier bug", and I can see it working on others, too. At intervals, the newer people will take a break, and I get to work with the experienced teachers at a higher level.  ``Kriemhilt

Φ Out. ~ See the Scola Metallorum Web site.  ``Seuilla

Φ Out. ~ Structured drills with assistants taking aside total newbies to allow more advanced students to focus on drill, pick-ups in which drill is applied consciously.  ``Ildiko

Φ Out. ~ I would like to see a 8-12 week program of working on drills and slow movements to make sure that the basics are cemented in the head. I suggest that this be about 50% of the practice but no more than an hour, once a week, then do slow or practice bouts with stops to show movements, technique and point out faults.  ``Doring

Inexperience

Φ Caid ~ Gosh, I wish I knew. I'm still so new at this, that I don't know.

Φ Drach. ~ Don't have enough experience to judge that really.

It depends...

Φ Anst. ~ Depends on the level of the student(s). I prefer to teach no more than four at a time.

Φ Caid ~ This really varies by current needs of my own skills and the needs of the students. all of [these: stretches, point control warm-up on a target, drills, slow sparring with an experienced person, work on specific problems, free spar, warm down] are needed, but the ratio changes by season and skill level of the group present at the practice.

Φ Mer. ~ I have not sought to determine an "ideal" practice as it is dependent upon the devotion/skill level of those present.  ``Sigurd

Φ Nor. ~ I am not sure I have an Ideal practice, because so much depends on the people at the practice. If I am with experienced fighter, or it is just after an event, I like the one-on-one stuff because it teaches new tricks and techniques. If there are a lot of new fighters, I like the slow stuff where I can watch, and teach..  ``David

Φ Out. ~ Depends on what result is desired.  ``Carrick

Φ Out. ~ Ideally I'd like to find translated sabre fencing manuals, teachers who can physically show me what the heck they are talking about in them and help me make them stick and become part of my regulare basket of goodies. I enjoy the mutual expolratory training my friends and I do concentrating on each of our different favorite movements and styles.  ``Jalid

Miscellaneous comments

Φ AEth. ~ I would like to see pratices more stagered. curently there is a push to get most of the pratices all on the same day. this kills every opertunity to travel to other pratices with different opponents.

Φ Caid ~ One where every one enjoys themselves & plays safe.

Φ Eald. ~ Relaxed / fun.  ``Gerrard

Φ Loch. ~ One in which I wasnt in pain.

Φ Mer. ~ Need good motivators and entertaining drills and fighting. This draws on the main appeal of the rapier community. I say down with boot camp and on with the tavern brawl!

Φ Mid. ~ I like to be involved in what is refered to as a 'losers pit'. Loser of the bout stays in until they win. This builds skill and give that person a chance to practice against more that a couple of people. It also get them used to tournament style fighting.  ``Gilebert

I've used something similar in what amuses me to call The Pit of Despair. (No relation to that administered by one Count Rugen.)

It's a reverse bear-pit: loser stays in, winner goes out. I'm pretty sure I got the original idea from a class by HL Cecil du Pont (Midrealm). Originally, I had the winner changing weapon forms before going back in, but I've learned that's not good if they want to focus on a single form that day.

Off duty!

Φ Caid ~ I have to spend a large portion of my time with the newer fencers. MY ideal practice is one where I get to work on my skills.  ``Eogan

Φ Caid ~ A big war practice ... where I don't have to teach or marshall!  ``Alexander K

Φ Mer. ~ To be able to not work on weekends and actually attend practices and events. ;-)

Quality time...

Φ An Tir ~ My current training program with my don is ideal!  ``Cormac

Φ Mer. ~ I am work with [my teacher] and I am getting the works I need.  ``Leon

Φ Tri. ~ My ideal training situation would be an opportunity to work with JUST my Don and a couple of select other Dons and experienced fencers, and to be able to fight as much as I want to without having to wait for space to be available. Ideally, the hangers on would not hang on and the people who currently show up to practices for the sake of politicing and trying to increase their political clout (or whatever) would just go away and leave me alone so I can actually learn something. ;)  ``Dulcia

Φ West ~ I have lessons with my Master Monday nights, we have regular recap practices every tuesday night. Then if we choose a local baronial practice on Sunday.

Setting, location

Φ AEth. ~ Hehehe. Pennsic?

Φ AEth. ~ [Our normal practice] held in gym or studio with mirrors Regional don/donna in charge.

Φ Art. ~ Dirt floor/ steel building.
Φ Atl. ~ Outside on a nice day with really spiffy gear.

Φ East ~ Piscataway, NJ.
Φ East ~ Something in a period style building, landscape, etc.

Φ Mid. ~ ... reliable winter practice ... and for any practice a studio with wall-o-mirrors so you can watch yourself fence to see if you can spot bad habits, weird things, ect.. [Another useful tool is a camcorder or video camera.]

Φ Tri. ~ ... held indoors where we can set up the newer students in the dance room with a large wall mirror which I find helps them with there form. after the new student is comfortable with the foot work and in holding a sword I start them with the slow sparring.  ``Mikael

Slow work

Φ An Tir ~ Slow work 50%. Full speed 50%. Try to use what was worked on slow at full speed.

Φ Aten. ~ I enjoy the slow drill workout with the expericenced fencers. In this way I can see and learn from what my moves are to thiers and vic the same.

Φ Atl. ~ Ideally, start with slow work learning new techniques. Then fast work with a variety of oppenents such that the play is varied enough to truly exercise material learned.

Φ Mer. ~ First half - slow sparring, drill work, parry drills, tip control. Second half - fast sparring.

Φ Mer. ~ Slow practice to learn the technique, pick up the spead to practice, then drill  (Free sparring like free swim time is play time not practice time and should be after practice/training.)

Φ Mid. ~ Abotu 25% slow work on a particular area for that practice then working that into the faster paced bouts later in the practice. Just picking a couple of areas to work on and concentrating on that.

Φ Out. ~ Slow work over advanced technique then sparring to get it at real speeds.

Spar

Φ AEth. ~ 20minutes to half hour non stop then 20 break then repeat 4 or 5 times with shorter breaks. usually about 3 to 6 hours twice a week.  ``Lodovick

Φ An Tir ~ It is rather small and is directed specifically for different needs. The regular fencers usually spar; however, novices are given individual attention. If an expert in a specific form is there, then time is given to new students to learn from the expert. Example, I am not the best person at sword and dagger. However, I had our best sword and dagger man teach my students, because I want them to learn.  ``Caiaphas

Φ Anst. ~ "People show up, pair up, and play. With a newcomer, one person will work with them individually in a training mode. If there are several newcomers, one or more experienced fighters will work with them in a class-like training mode." For the SCA, this is as it should be. Training/Growth is the individual's responsibility. Youth Rapier should be more training oriented, but almost no one is really qualified to do it properly.  ``Walter

Φ Anst. ~ I'm not a real big fan of drills and such and enjoy sparring far more. Friendly folks willing to help each other out, give pointers (only after asking if it is acceptable to give or being asked to provide them) and just enjoy themselves and maybe learn a thing or two. Plus in my experience sparring is what most folks find the most enjoyable and sparring (which normally entails for the better fencers, stepping down their fight to be just a notch above the lower fencers) also seems to provide for the fastest learning curve in getting folks to quickly progess in ability. Some drills may be needed to help occasional from problems, but more people will work out the kinks with just a bit of guidance than you would think.  ``Lionardo

Φ Aten. ~ Fighting to warm up. Lessons/drills. Slow Sparring to practice. More fighting.  ``John Patrick

Φ Atl. ~ Pick-ups with different skilled fighters, then melee's.

Φ Caid ~ 10min warm-up drills or fights. Work on a specific technique. Fight and have fun!  ``Arabella

Φ Caid ~ A practice with a wide variety of fighters and at least one white scarf, more is preferable. free sparing to warm up, then a leason on some advanced techniques, free sparring to work on the technique. Then end with some melee fights.

Φ Caid ~ The first hour would be drills or controlled sparring. I expect I'd teach some of it, but it would be nice to have more advanced drills taught to me. The rest of the practice would involve sparring with a range of people about my skill level, preferably with a "focus" (e.g. "use more compass and slope paces") to the practice.  ``Todde

Φ East ~ Fast bouting with good people and having fun.  ``Matatias

Φ East ~ Many free form bouts, surpervised by senior fencers who are encouraged to add constructive comments.

Φ East ~ For myself I'm out to have fun, not get better. I like melees, I'd probably do melees all the time if I could, I'm not into drill, or even that much into fencing singles. if i were to do make a training program that would be a whole other thing... it would involve one on one fencing at the beggining (even one on one drills) but let the drill go asap and go onto melees fairly soon...  ``Cynan

Φ Mer. ~ I prefer lots of sparring when working with other fencers, but that should be supplimented with daily solo drill training.

Φ Mid. ~ Free spar with some instruction when a weak point is noticed.

[end]

Up to index	More pages on Ideal Practices: Period moves Prep first Drills More (something) Typical = Ideal
Question 26 Typical practices		Question 28 Skill rank

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