Results and comments from the Aug/Sep 2003 survey.

	Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Mindset: comments on chivalry and honor
	Updated: May 24, 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for your amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

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# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

The comments below were sent in response to Question 16.

Respondents share their input on chivalry, courtesy, gallantry, honor, respect, and what people do (or do not do) when they earn an advantage in combat (generally in a tourney) by disabling one of their opponent's limbs.

The comments

Note: Any remarks in the comments below from Yves look like this.

Other comments on this topic (mindset) are on separate pages.
See the links at the bottom of this page.

Choice picks

Φ West ~ I am gallant and chivalrous on the field, but understand it isa grace, not a rule.

Φ Tri. ~ We no longer call it an act of chivalry (here in Trimaris) but rather call it an act of courtesy. ;-)  ``Seamus

Φ Mer. ~ On the No Quarter given: This is an Honor thing -- I expect everyone to fight their best fight, no exception. If I lose a limb abd someone mimics the loss in the name of chivalry, they are not giving their best fight. That to me is not Chivalrous, it is demeaning. Yhe intent may be honorable byt the action, by my standard if always giving the best, is not.

Æthelmearc

Φ The answer will depend on the situation. Courteous behavior is expected in all encounters.  ``Christian

Φ I am here to ensure that everyone involved has a good time. My pride is not so costly as my honor.

Φ Humpf, it's all situation dependent. I will not give an "act of chivalry" to a WS. But a person known to be new I will.  ``Ivan

Φ I think there are more ways to perform an "act of chivalry" than the one described here. Recently I attended an armored tournament in which a fighter announced to his recently legged opponent that he respected his skill too much to "even up" the fight by taking his own legs. This was strongly applauded (IMO rightfully so) by the spectators and watching crown.  ``Sasha

Φ I will not force the common "act of chivalry" on anyone as that would be a sign of disrespect of the gentle's study and prowess. If I am to use the "act of chivalry," it will only be with the permission of my opponent as I would not wish to insult anyone. If an opponent forces such a grandiose gesture upon me after I have cautioned them not to do so, I seek to demonstrate to them that it was ill-advised as they needed that advantage that they had earned. I will give up an advantage if I did not earn it (i.e., I did not throw the shot and instead lucked onto it because my opponent was inexperienced).  ``Corwin

An Tir

Φ I will not attack when An opponenet is off theri guard Ie going down to a legged postion, chaning hands etc.

Φ I like the competition and play to win, but playing to win does not mean you can't be honourable and chivalrous.

Φ Taking your arm, after taking your opponents is NOT chivalrous. I may sometimes do this if it was an accident - but if you take someones arm, then why would you give up your own?  ``Ramon

Φ I am courtesy and chivarlious but that doesn't mean maiming myself because i gained an advantage over a opponent. That being said i match weapons when i enter the field to enter the bout fair.  ``Cormac

Φ Chivalric acts generally simply serve to make me uncomfortable. If a fighter wants to kill me, and disables my arm, If I choose to continue to fight, there is no way the other fighter should endanger his life more than he has to. A clean death to me is more chivalric than evening the use of hands with one's opponents.  ``Argan

Φ I always used to give my own limb after disabling my opponent. Eventually, I realized I didn't want my opponents doing this when they had rightfully earned the advantage of disabling me. I think it's an important part of the strategy, so I usually don't now. If I "accidentally" take a limb (eg my opponent pushes their own arm along my blade) then I will still give my own limb to match them.  ``Vincent

Ansteorra

Φ I have been known to yield after recieving a serious arm or leg wound.

Φ I like learning and fighting in the style of "The Old Masters" and including Chivalry into the mix. In my most memorable fights, we kill and get killed 50% of the time, while laughing our heads off!  ``Jacques

Φ I will yield instantly from leg woungs (I learned after getting stabbed in the leg with a rapier that I would not continue the fight). Likewise I'll yield instantly if I lose my weapon, as I am now at my opponent's mercy.  ``Joachim

Φ I play as if the blades should be treated as sharp because we are showing our skill with a blade. We are on our honor to respond as if the blades were sharp, that's how wer learn and display skill. Skill at blow calling can demonstrate honor. Of course our Queen would not ask her courtiers to killeach other for her amusment! However, those who compete to be her champion must demonstrate the deadliest sills. So if a call is missed or death is tooslow in coming or we forget to fal down, that is becaause it is a tournament, a display but it is an important display.  ``Claire

Φ ... what is the point of me taking an arm or leg if I'm not going to use the advantage that I EARNED by taking it? We both stepped on the field with full use of our limbs, I didn't cheat, I didn't achieve my advantage unfairly, I certainly would not expect someone who legged or armed me to relevel the playing field. If I didn't wan't to play with one arm or legged, then I should've made the parry. That being said, I will, on occasion, depending upon the fighter, yield my off-hand weapon, if I have one, after I take an arm or leg. But I will retain the use of my off-hand itself.  ``Henri

Atlantia

Φ I generally expect no quarter but do give up an arm until I know that my opponent does not want this.  ``Cam

Φ What's the point of taking an opponent's arm or leg, just to give up your own? Take the advantage.

Φ The "act of chivalry" only works if you've already got an advantage over the other person - or can hold your own.  ``Costanca

Φ I know that not everyone has the same "Point of honour" system in their head, but if I take an arm, I'll usually give an arm. I believe in evening the playing field. A notable exception is if I take a leg I usually won't also go down. It's too scary for me down there :). I guess that makes me a hypocrit :-P  It depends strongly on how I feel I measure vs. my opponent. If I feel they have less experience then I do, I'll give them my limbs as I take theirs. If they are a premiere rapier fighter, I'll give arms but never my legs. Depends on if they have longer weapons too. If they have a 42 vs my 35 and I take one of their arms, I may not give a point of honour.  ``Gunther

Caid

Φ As far as acts of chivalry, it depends on who I'm fighting.  ``Leonarda

Φ I'm am a newbie and I'm often outclassed. I will usually not give up an arm or leg if my opponent is much better than I am...but I will let them know why.  ``Stefano

Φ While I use blunts with my friends, I know that I may be called to defend my honor. Therefore, I try to treat the bout as a serious avocation, not a mere passtime.

Φ I yield the fight if I'm legged. The arm thing is an SCAism, and I don't mind fighting single sword with my off hand, so I'll cede my arm. Keeps thing interesting, and it's veiwed as polite around here.  ``David

Φ While I may switch to off-hand if I somehow (remember I'm not good at this game) take my opponents sword arm, I don't believe in actually injuring myself and removing the advantage I've earned. I have also asked a legged opponent if he wishes to yield, but on one ever has.  ``Meala

Φ I like to play for fun. If I get in the mindset of killing my oppenent, I feel like I will do things which are not chivalrous to win - still within the rules (call all shots), but not chivalrous. Wars are another thing entirely. There is no Chivalry in war. Get the other gut to die for his cause, to paraphrase Patton.  ``Kelan

Φ It is supposed to be fun. Be chivalrous. But if you take someone's arm, you earned it. No one should get mad if you decide you don't want to not use yours. They should've lost it, practice more. Especially in melees, its WAR not a tourney. Its a kind bonus if the opponent decides to forgo use of a good arm.  ``Dalen

Φ I come from a heavies background (Body squire, not fighter) so I have a deep schooling in chivalry. I think the rapier community could benefit greatly from more emphasis on chivalry, even if the romantic ideals of Chivalry aren't specific to the time period that rapier combat represents. It's the Current Middle Ages, we've reinvented a lot of other stuff, why not this too?  ``Iliana

Φ I feel extremely strongly that chivalry is more important than winning, but everyone defines chivalry differently. There is no honor in winning a bout if your opponent has no opportunity to strike you back. I will maintain one advantage (keep my feet if my opponent is legged, but not stay completely out of their range during my attacks) but not two (give up a second weapon if my opponent loses hand/arm, since that is a much greater discrepancy; if a legged opponent loses a hand, I will sit down and give up my secondary as well.)  ``Felinah

Drachenwald

Φ Why is it practically "not allowed" to speak of fencing and chivalry in one sentence?

My guess is: Not being expected to perform "acts of chivalry" on the field is a way to distinguish fencing from armored combat, where such acts are expected or encouraged in some areas.

Φ Yes, I frequently give up my arm if I disable my oponents arm, but only to give myself an advantage. (I am quite good with my left).

Φ As for the "act of chivalry", I vary. If I am fighting someone who is less skilled, I will give up something. If I am fighting someone of approximately equal skill, I will only give up something if my wounding them was an accident (it showed no skill on my part, only sloppiness). If I am fighting someone of higher skill, I give up nothing! I do it out of respect for their abilities. If I give something up, I remain less of a challenge to them.  ``Muirghein

Ealdormere

Φ I *sometimes* will give up use of my arm after taking my opponent's arm, if the person is very new.

Φ I'll swap weapon to my off-hand if I take my opponent's primary arm, but only if I consider that I would otherwise have the advantage...against a Bronze Ring/White Scarf/OGRE/other Master of Defense, I'd be crazy to make a stupid gesture like that!  ``Nicholas

East

Φ I don't do points of honor/acts of chivalry. When I do, I die quicker.  ``Richild

Φ I also believe in the honor system, yes if someone losses there hand (depending on skill difference), I will give up my off arm.

Φ I never give up my own arm if I've taken someone else's - kind of defeats the purpose - why would I go to all that trouble to handicap myself?  ``Brita

Φ I don't believe in giving up the use of the arm or leg--It is more honourable to show that I am afraid of my opponent by keeping full use of my appendages.  ``Domenego

Φ Oh - I do not give up arms or legs for "chivalry". I do it to keep the fight fun. Me with rapier and dagger, you with single isn't usually a fight - it's an execution. That's not fun.

Φ Although I often "do the honorable thing" by giving up an advantage over an opponent, I am more and more persuaded that this Victorian theory of honor is far from period and insulting to my foe - good if I want to emulate Cyrano...  ``Fei-Hong

Φ My perception varies on the event. Although I do often give up a second weapon when I've taken someone's arm or leg, I never give up my own leg or switch to a non-dominant hand. I don't do any of this to be chivalrous, but out of arrogance in my own skill.  ``Brokk

Φ As for the giving up a limb, I have a weird way of looking at it. If I was AIMING to take the limb then I do not give up my equivalent arm or weapon or what have you. I feel that if I was INTENDING on taking an advantage why would I give that advantage up? Now if I take a limb accidentally (it happens alot really) then i give up my equivalent as well. I do not take advantage from a sloppy shot.  ``Griffith

Not weird at all, I find.

Northshield

Φ I always ask if my opponate would like me to join them, if they say yes then I do, if they give me choice, I decide based on their skill, and my generosity at the time, I feel someone on knees actually has an advantage over me, it is one of my week spots, I tend to throw myself upon their blade, still working on that one. I have also been told no, sometimes it is because they want to work on that skill for themselves or they just feel frogy.  ``Gabrielle

Trimaris

Φ Never insult your opponent , but ever think they are helpless either. be honorable in everything you do.

Φ Honorable blow calling is lost and I am afraid that fencing is going to suffer badly from the win at all cost attitude I am seeing on the field.

Φ I personally adopt the idea of courtesy to ones opponent, but that is a challenge to myself. When I explain the concept to students I leave the decision to them but encourage them to keep an advantage if they earn one, especially if they are less experienced fighters.  ``Silvain

Φ I perfer to consider fencing a serious endevor. Doing your best on the field is the most important, Trying your best to win is important, this being unless you are giving it evey effort to win you are cheating your opponent out of your best effort. Winning is not important, trying to win using honorable and legal methods is.  ``Elric

West

Φ "Acts of chivalry", honour and courtesy are the only things that separate our game from a boxing match ... take that out and it's just boys with toys and then, I'd definitely turn my back on it.

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Original page posted: October 18, 2004. Last tweaked: July 1, 2006.

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