Results and comments from the Aug/Sep 2003 survey.

	Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Authenticity and Research
	Updated: May 24, 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for your amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

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# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

Based on the responses:

• WAY too many of us think we have authentic-looking attire, use authentic-looking equipment, or use authentic speech... *G*
• Many of us have taken advantage of the fact that translations of period fencing manuals are available on the Web.
• Not surprisingly, few of us have done any of the translating.

Question 15. Authenticity and research

Check all that apply to you, if any.

Total number of responses: 567.

KEY

Yes: Number of "yes" responses.
Per: Yes ÷ total responses.

Due to rounding, percentages are not exact.

The comments

Note: Any remarks in the comments below from Yves look like this.

The main topics below include — Speech, Money, Goal, Fun first, Authenticity, Attire, and more.

Other comments on this topic are on separate pages.
See the links at the bottom of this page.

Choice picks

Φ Atl. ~ Better dead than shabby.  ``Belphoebe

Φ Out. ~ My authenticity is better in many of my non-combat activities, but that is partly because the combat activities require inauthentic armor and weapon standards. I use bell guards, which is not authentic, but my weapons are heavier than SCA average. This is my long-time (20+ yrs) compromise between safety and authenticity. Old habbits are hard to break. "Olympic" fencers (those who emphasize speed and winning over style or research) also make it harder to be more authentic - they won't play the same game, and it's hard to use period techniques against modern style opponents. ... I will add that I find schläger to be heavy epée, not rapier.  ``Guillaume

Attire, clothing

Φ AEth. ~ When I become a better fencer I will try to fence in a skirt (I'm a "lady") but until then I will wear masculine clothes... though I try to keep my SCA clothes for any occasion reasonably "authentic."  ``Miriel

Φ An Tir ~ I even practice in my fencing garb. some people don't. I wear slops (pumkin pants), even though I am scottish, so you *know* i must be devoted.  ``Samuale

Φ An Tir ~ Since I am female and fight as a woman, I try my best to be "period" but sometimes I feel like I'm really stretching it. But, I put on a good show of Ladies' Elizabethan attire, I'm learning more about period techinques all the time.  ``Luaithrenn

Φ Anst. ~ Making armor that passes inspection AND lloks like good period clothing is NOT cheap or easy.

Φ Aten. ~ I don't sew and I am hard to fit so I don't like to bother folks in regards to making stuff for me. Not to mention, I'm not really sure what I want to wear so I'm basically waiting for something to come along....the old, "I'll know it when I see it" type of thing.  ``Bethia

Φ Atl. ~ I'd like to have authentic-looking attire, but I haven't got any...

Φ Atl. ~ I'm working out my doublet pattern! I'm not good enough to move authentically yet...I'm just trying not to trip over my feet!

Φ Caid ~ I often have to debate my "period" attire, but that is because of my colour choice.  ``Meala

Φ Caid ~ I try to look authentic, though it's not always possible. (Those knee high boots are so darned expensive!)  ``Hob

Φ Drach. ~ Still working on fencing garb.  ``Gerhardt

Φ Drach. ~ It's my goal that every fencer I have to watch will wear The Right Stuff before I'm done playing. Probably impossible, but [I] gotta dream...

Φ East ~ I used to have authentic-looking fencing armour, but I "outgrew" it.

Φ Loch. ~ I try to wear the right attire, but lately have had to make do with legal need to get some more gear made.

Φ Mer. ~ I wish that I had better skills to make my own clothing that would be period and I am working on making a comfortable to shoe to fight in. I am working on better attire.  ``Leon

Φ Mid. ~ I am working towards Authentic attire!

Φ Mid. ~ I think i'm acceptable authentic in my attire.

Φ Mid. ~ Afterall masks, and any other protective gear isn't preiod. They fought in shirt sleaves and trousers.

Φ Mid. ~ I wear kinda authentic looking stuff, but it was made early in my sewing career. And I don't really see any point in upgrading if I only fence often enough to keep my authorization and marshallate.

Φ Nor. ~ The better and more authentic you look, the better you do. At least I know the better I get my garb the better I fight rather it is more fighting time as both take time or the confidance I feel when I know I look good, or maybe both, but if I am in my "good" fencing garb I fight better than if I'm in mundane clothes with required armor on.  ``Gabrielle

Φ Tri. ~ I fence in female garb, but I look like a lady.  ``Francis

Φ Tri. ~ I wear somewhat period looking attire but not authentic looking, per se. My doublet is patterned after what I had in my mind for a usable rapier jacket and not from any manual.  ``Seamus

Authenticity

Φ AEth. ~ I respect those who study the period aspects. I prefer competition, without grappling.  ``Ivan

Φ An Tir ~ I'm already fairly authentic, and I'm constantly trying to improve my authenticity (which also improves my game).  ``Ruaidhri

Φ An Tir ~ Authenticity is all in the eye of the beholder. If a move doesn't appear in a manual that doesn't mean it wasn't used in period.  ``Cormac

Φ An Tir ~ I promote authenticy as the Branch Marshall of Ramsgaard, I believe it gives us credibility when we recruiting, doing a demo, and for our own satisfaction of why we do this.  ``Draven

Φ Anst. ~ Authenticity is half the battle!

Φ Anst. ~ You needed an additional level of authenticity here. There's the complete authenticity people with whom I do not compare...but I certainly look more authentic than many.

Φ Aten. ~ Period isn't appropriate in form - we are doing a sport, while that stuff was for real. Psychology effects technique and possibility.  ``Rurik

Φ Atl. ~ Yay period fencing.  ``Alejandro

Φ Atl. ~ "Authentic looking" is used very loosely, in my case.  ``Rois

Φ Atl. ~ I don't insist on authenticity in others, but it is part of why my wife and I play.  ``Duncan

Φ Caid ~ I am far more interesting in period combat than in winning.

Φ Caid ~ IMO you can't really effectively watch if you have no idea what period styles are and are not.

Φ Caid ~ I study period techniques outside of the SCA and use what fits the SCA frame work (i.e. lunging yes, percussive cuts no). I prefer to fight within the period context rather than fight to win.

Φ Caid ~ I'm very in favor of period fighting and have the advantage of being able to work with two or 3 Dons in Caid who are particularly expert in and interested in period work. I must admit I tend to rely on their translation and reading of manuals more than I should, but I'll eventually get around to doing more on my own.  ``Felinah

Φ East ~ Authenticity SHOULD be the name of the game. People who use modern technique in minimal garb, and are only there for the fencing are doing a dis-service to us all.

Φ Loch. ~ I Tend towards the authenticity side of this question, if we want to be taken seriously we must take ourselfs seriously.  ``Dameon

Φ Mid. ~ I define the term "authentic" to mean "within the period of the SCA". I see nothing wrong with Normans or Vikings or high 14th century English doing SCA fencing.  ``Purple

Φ Mid. ~ I try to be as authentic as possible, but I realize that's not for everyone. I also think that the SCA period should be extended to 1650. You can be a caveman or a Roman and still play in the SCA, but not a Musketeer? Come on now.  ``Zygmunt

Φ Tri. ~ This is an aspect that is only really starting to catch on in Trimaris, even though Don Giovanni has been working to promote more period approaches to rapier here for quite some time.  ``Dulcia

Φ Tri. ~ I have studies fencing for many years before fencing in the SCA, I try as much as possible to use period methods and tactics within the confins of the SCA rules.  ``Elric

Φ West ~ Authenticity, within the context of our peri-oid game, that is.

Classes

Φ Drach. ~ This is really what I want to learn; more classes should be taught about that!

Φ East ~ Study French and Italian rapier at the Martinez Academy.  ``Armand

Φ Nor. ~ Eternal student.  ``Fiskr

Φ West ~ Still learning a lot regarding fencing in SCA.... would be more helpful if there were more classes teaching things like proper fighting clothing, language, etc.  ``Alessandra

Equipment

Φ Atl. ~ Weapons are the hardest to duplicate, but I make an effort. An Eppe is never going to look right and we simply have to bow to safety first. I have done live steel as well, but you really have to know and trus the person on the other end!

Φ Tri. ~ In so much as it's possible I use authentic looking weaponry, but still use a mask not a fencing helm.  ``Francis

Fun first

Φ Caid ~ I'm in it for the fun, but I like to add authentic moves and clothing when I can. I'm just not much of a scholar when it comes to reading the material and am too impatient to practice the moves all that often.  ``Kelan

Φ Eald. ~ I'm in it for the fun, not the authenticity.

Φ Eald. ~ I'm delighted that authenticity seems to be a growing movement in SCA Rapier communities, but I don't want it to become the overriding aim of Rapier in the SCA. I wouldn't play if it stopped being fun.  ``Nicholas

Φ Eald. ~ Fun first Autenticity ... something to strive for / Dont madate it! I am very concerned about forced "Period " / " Autenticity ". Who or whom decides? Some Reaserch ?? It would create an elitist group. Most fencer fence ( do every thing SCA )for fun and comradery not " Authenticity " > Forced authenticity would reduce the amount of ' Players " by 1/3 to 50 % in my oppinion. It impacts the wallet as well ie: inexpensive bell guard blades vs others. I fence and SCa because its fun ( My opinion most people do ) The " Authenticity Police " Would narrow the fun .  ``Gerrard

Φ East ~ I'm here to play!

Φ Loch. ~ Errol Flynn rocks.  ``Hanbal

Φ Mid. ~ Im here to have fun.. this IS a hobby... If this becomes NOT fun because of Authenticity 'police' I will look for something else to do..  ``Gilebert

Φ Nor. ~ Get rid of the "period police" and let people have fun.

Goal, plan, progress

Φ An Tir ~ I'm working on gathering more authentic looking gear, and am trying to use a more period style, with mixxed success :)  ``Tristan

Φ Aten. ~ Once I win the lottery and have the time I'll study more and work on my authenticity ...... NO, Really!  ``Egan

Φ Caid ~ Always trying to improve in period forms, styles, and equipment.

Φ Caid ~ While not all of my gear is as authentic as I'd like, it's getting there.  ``Grainne

Φ Caid ~ I'd like to be more authentic. It's certainly a goal but I haven't yet moved very far in that direction.

Φ Caid ~ Still getting the basics down. When I get that solid, I'll definitely expand to include the more period techniques.  ``Iliana

Φ Drach. ~ Period fencing is something that I expect to grow into as my experience and skill allow.  ``Acarin

Φ Drach. ~ This is something I'm striving very hard to improve. I feel that it will enhance the game for not only myself, but for those around me. I feel that it also enriches me as a person.  ``Muirghein

Φ East ~ I'm just starting, I'll get better.

Φ Loch. ~ I want to learn it all and master all I can! :)  ``Marc

Φ Mid. ~ The skimming and the repertoir are in the process of improving. OR so I tell myself :)  ``Kyrstyan

Φ Mid. ~ With time comes more effort towards authenticity. I didn't realize how much I was moving towards it until I answered this question.  ``Kriemhilt

Φ Out. ~ plan on learning more period fencing techniques but there is so much to study and so little time. (I'm a full time student currently).  ``Diana

Φ West ~ I am slowly building up an idea of how I'd like to progress in my fencing studies.  ``Staffan

Gotta keep on .. tryin’

Φ AEth. ~ I'm working on it!  ``Charles

Φ AEth. ~ I *try* to approximate authenticity, and hope I succeed to some extent.
Obviously how well I succeed or fail in that endeavor changes from event to event...  ``Po

Φ An Tir ~ For the first three Questions I try, as my years in the SCA grow, so does my desire for period garb, equipment, and speech.  ``Duncan

Φ An Tir ~ I'm working on improving my authenticy in all areas. The clothing, etc. is easier and faster to get into than the period moves which require a lot more study.  ``Alicia

Φ Atl. ~ Working on it, working on it.

Φ Atl. ~ I try to be period looking and moving, but I'm sure I don't appease most of the period-nazi's.  ``Marcus

Φ Caid ~ I'm just learning! I'll get there!

Φ Caid ~ I hope to move up a catagory or two here. In my copious free time.

Φ Caid ~ its hard to really check off here becuse 1 i havent had a chance to go out and fight outside of practice yet.. and i dont have my gear done so i can go out and fight.. and then my persona is japanese so...

Φ Mid. ~ I've been trying to learn some authentic moves and am moving towards authentic-looking attire.  ``Catalin

Φ Mid. ~ Going for authentic attire and equipment, just working my way there...poor college student ya know??

Φ Tri. ~ I am still learning.

Φ Tri. ~ Hey I just got started...... Im trying (hahaha).  ``Gavine

Impossible?

Φ An Tir ~ I will approximate period garb, but swordplay is my focus. Yes, I would like to delve deeper into period practices, but locally, that's not possible.  ``Laurin

Inexperience

Φ AEth. ~ I am too new at this to get too far.

Φ East ~ I'd LIKE to wear authentic-looking attire and have a repertoir of authentic movements. However, at this time I don't have the knowlegde to do so.  ``Jane

Money

Φ Art. ~ I attempt to use authentic looking garb and equipment, but due to finances I fall short of where I wish to be in authenticity.

Φ Atl. ~ When my pocketbook allows me, I plan to invest in more period looking attire and equipment as well as buy several manuals and study them intensely.  ``Keelin

Φ East ~ I'd like to use authentic-looking equipment on the field, but my finances won't allow that yet.  ``Matatias

Φ Mid. ~ Or at least I'm trying in the face of financial hardship. I do whatever the budjet will bear.  ``Uadahlrich

Φ Mid. ~ I'm really really trying to get some authentic-ish fencing gear, but price is really an issue. A Triplette starter set is reasonably priced and only requres a hood, gorget and overtunic to make it SCA legal and/or period-looking. I'm a student, I have little money to spare.  ``Lydia

Φ Tri. ~ So far, funds have prevented me from acquiring authentic-looking equipment, although it is a goal.

Persona

Φ Atl. ~ I also have an earlier period persona (13th century) and do not feel it right to switch to a later one just to look "right" on the rapier field according to what someone else defines.  ``Nikolai

Question

Φ AEth. ~ I still wonder about the outcme of historically accurate vs. honed and effective.

Safety first

Φ East ~ If it's a choice between damaging my body to look authentic, or protecting my health, I will protect my health. That means I wear sneaker to most practices, and in some tourneys. For demos or important events (lots of spectators) I will go with period boots. I also have some period shoes that are fairly comfortable as long as the grass isn't too wet.  ``Brokk

Skill

Φ East ~ Is this a trick question? I'm working on getting past a plateau in my skill.  ``Richild

Speech

Φ AEth. ~ I don't speak forsoothly on the field because as a marshall it is more important for me to be immeadeatly understood and I use that distinction in my voice to make sure that happens.

Φ Drach. ~ Not sure how authentic my speech is, but I try...  ``Guntram

Φ Eald. ~ I wish I could check off "I use authentic speech on the field", I want to do that more.

Φ Eald. ~ What is authentic speech? All we have recorded for grammer and vocabulary of the period is from written texts. Yet we know that people most likely wrote differently than they spoke, in fact people writing books in period would try _very_ hard to write with a more authoritative voice (use a larger vocabulary and eliminate vernacular, as well many seem to believe long winded indicated intelligence).  ``Wilhelm

I included the option for "authentic speech" to learn more about it.

Φ East ~ I like the use of periodoid (much more common than "authentic", btw) speech, and try to use it occasionally but mostly I fall back on modern speech.

Φ East ~ Authentic speech? What an odd concept. SCA fencing, and SCA fighting in general, has developed its own vocabulary and style. There is some overlap with period practice and there is more every year, which is nice. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "authentic speech," though.

You’re who..?

Φ Aten. ~ C'mon, I'm Senan! :)

Your feedback is most welcome!

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Original page posted: October 18, 2004. Last tweaked: July 1, 2006.

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