Results and comments from the Aug/Sep 2003 survey.

	Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Light blades (foil, epée)
	Updated: May 24, 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for your amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

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# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

These comments were sent in response to Question 11.

Why some people like the lighter blades — speed, useful for initial training.

Why more people don't — not safe, not authentic, too whippy.

The comments

Note: Any remarks in the comments below from Yves look like this.

Jump to: Neutral/Mixed comments, Unfavorable comments

For more comments and stats, see the links at the bottom of this page.

FAVORABLE

Generic favorable comments for epée:
AEthelmearc 1, Ansteorra 1, Atlantia 3, Caid 1, East 4, Outlands 2, and Trimaris 2.

Generic favorable comments for foil: zero.
 

AEthelmearc

Φ Foil is faster.

Φ Doublewide epees are nice and strong enough for SCA use.  ``Charles

Φ With foil, I prefer a stronger competition grade foil over a cheap soft practice version. They hold up better and feel better. I also favor the Triplette 35 inch Musketeer blade. It requires good sense of calibration as it is such a strong blade, but again durability and proprioception with the blade are fantastic for an epee.  ``Corwin

Ansteorrra

Φ I like the speed of Epees.  ``Jacques
Φ Foils are good for training.
Φ Epee--its what I first learned with.

Φ Epee I like because I can train anyone with it.  ``Pieter
Φ Epee, yields to your control and does not whip.  ``Chiara

Φ I like the epee, because I'm still learning to keep control on the blade.

Atlantia

Φ The epee's speed is nice.  ``Marcus
Φ Triplett epee - used most often.

Φ Epee. The blade doesn't give as much as a foil.  ``Cristobal
Φ Like Epee because it is fast and requires finesse.  ``Renard
Φ I'm partial to epee, because of the weight difference.

Φ I think the best blades I have ever used are simple Russian #5 practice blades I got from thefencingpost.com

Φ I like the rapier because, when the schlager makes my arm tired, I can keep fighting.  ``Iseulte

I'm guessing she meant epée for rapier.

Φ I prefer the Epee because I am most experienced with it; also, it is the standard in my kingdam. In Melees, I've found that most melee scenarios include the patented "hard hit." That is, it's far more likely that you will take a hard hit at least once in a melee than it is in singles combat. With that in mind, whould you rather take that hit on an Epee or on a Schlager?  ``Celric

Caid

Φ I love my foil for it's quickness vs. epees.  ``Stefano

Φ Epee was my first weapon (foil was my offhand in case). I enjoy the quickness of the epee, but I love the movement and use of the theatrical blades.  ``Kelan

Drachenwald

Φ Foil is my preferred weapon for teaching beginners.

East

Φ I prefer foil for speed and manuverability. Why use an epee when you can use a foil?

Φ So far I enjoy my 40 inch epee the most. Other than that I would have to say any epee in general.  ``Santiago

Φ Eppee's are nice as they allow for speed and a more evenly matched game between two combatants.

Meridies

Φ Epees I like enough to play and be solid with them, but I feel they are mainly a training tool to make the heavy blade work better.  ``Leon

Outlands

Φ I like foil: it is an excellent training tool for beginners. Foil is readily accessible and helps new fencers learn control with less fear of hurting themselves or their partner. I think epée is better for tournaments. Foil is safest blade I've used (even a broken foil probably wouldn't cause serious harm if you wear eye protection).

I like epée: it is a marginally better recreation than foil, they are easy to buy, and they are safe in the hands of less skilled fencers. Epée is safe enough, and a broken blade is highly unlikely to hurt anyone in SCA legal armor.  ``Guillaume

Trimaris

Φ I like epee for the speed factor.  ``Seamus
Φ Like the TCA doublewides just fine . . .

Φ Double wides are my favorite. I like them because of their stiff response.

Φ I loved the foil, but it's not legal in Trimaris, so I have adapted and now love my epees.  ``Francis

Φ I liked foil but I understand why we don't use it anymore. Love epee, light, fast fun, very little bruising.

Φ I like epee the best. Especially when teaching new people how to fence. It doesn't confuse them with strip fencing as much with foil.  ``Lillian

LEON PAUL EPEES/BLADES

Φ AEth. ~ I love my Leon Paul blades as they last forever.  ``Illadore

Φ AEth. ~ Leon Paul sheet metal epee due to it's durability, I own 2 that are 4 years old.  ``Corwin

Φ AEth. ~ With epee, I prefer using a Leon Paul sheet metal epee. The performance is fantastic, and the durability makes the price more than a value. I have used the same LP extensively since 1998 with no visible sign of impending failure. It handles just as it did when I first purchased it.

Φ Anst. ~ If I have to buy an epee, I'l buy one of theirs.  ``Aeron

Φ East ~ I'm in love with my sheet metal epee.  ``Astridr

Φ East ~ I enjoy Leon Paul blades for their amazing durability.

Φ East ~ Leon Paul "sheet metal" epees simply rock! They last a long time, move well and hit with a nice flex to them. They cannot be beat. They last 5 times (at least) longer than any other epee I've ever owned.  ``Brokk

SHEET METAL EPEES

Φ East ~ Sheet metal epees--- light, difficult to thug someone even when you're clumsy, and durable.

Φ East ~ I am very fond of the sheet metal epees.. they are resilient and when they die they just fold up.  ``Griffith

NEUTRAL/MIXED

An Tir

Φ Foil and epee are not I would prefer to see used in combat. Nice for teaching, though.  ``Laurin

Ansteorra

Φ Double wide eppees are sufficient as a practice weapon.  ``Claire

Φ I used a foil as the off hand sword in a case, but I've used it rarely in more recent years...

Φ Epee is better, but both foil and epee have short lifespan (as in breakability) compared to schlager or other heavy blades.

Φ Foil...no value. too light, whippy. Has no basis as a real weapon, not even a very good training tool. Fine for women and children.  ``Joachim

Φ Epees I like because of the speed and light weight. However, I dislike the flex aspects of both epees and foils. Too many flat hits that look like good ones, and too many 'fly fishing' hits where the blade flexes over your guard and then snaps up and the point lands.  ``Henri

Φ Used foil for many years, still like it, but not reaaly a good representation of a period blade. Started using epee when the foil became rare in my opponent's arsenal, but continued to use foil against epee most of the time. Epee was primarily used when my opponent was unconfortable facing a foil.  ``David

Atlantia

Φ Epee is fun because i'm really good at it, but it is not realistic.  ``Rufus

Φ No one in my current local group [...] uses foils - they're good for working up speed, though no one seems to want to admit that they may have a place. I've seen them used effectively (in another group) as training weapons for people that regularly use schlaegers, and the combination seemed to really work.  ``Costanca

Caid

Φ Foil -- to light, not at all period.
Φ Epee is ok, but not as realistic as far as how it handles.  ``Johann

Drachenwald

Φ Foil too whippy.
Φ Dislike: Epees, though fun to play with occasionally.  ``Cernac

Ealdormere

Φ Foil/Epee: Far too light in my opinion.  ``Sebastian

Φ Epees are fun, but I feel they don't belong in the SCA, they are not useful tools for historical renacactment of pre-17th c. combat.  ``Wilhelm

Φ Not that epee isn't a fun game, and one that many people play extremely well - but I feel that the differences in the blade remove much of the ability to do real recreation because they are too different from period blades.

East

Φ Foils ... are a great teaching tool, but too me they feel too light.

Φ I find foil to be to speed oriented, even more so then epee thus an obvious lack of ability to perform period styles properly. Of lighter blades I find epee to at least be slightly better in this regard because of the strength of the blade.  ``Ronan

Meridies

Φ Foil-like ok, not heavy engough.

Φ Although I still have the epees I do't use them much, they don't make a good replica of a rapier, they have different handling caracteristics.  ``Irene

Midrealm

Φ Epee's are just too light.  ``Robert

Northshield

Φ Epee is all speed.  ``Margalit
Φ Epee is the fastest.

Outlands

Φ Epee is all right.
Φ Epee is a speed game.
Φ Like epee somwhat as median choice.  ``Volker

Φ Indifferent - Epee (would rather just use schlager, but is Outlands default...)  ``Antoine

Φ As for epee, it lends itself to a small sword game, not to rapier (with some specific exceptions, such as the Graves used my Maestro Martinez).  ``Charles

Trimaris

Φ Epee is likeable fast blade, but i worry about bending torqueing and general safetty. but I love the light weight fast fun of the weapon.

UNFAVORABLE

Æthelmearc

Φ Foil: feh!  ``Michael

Φ Hate Foil and Epee...way too light and whippy!

Φ Epee: ... I think it is an exceptionaly poor rapier simulator and will not use it as such.  ``Christian

Φ Foil: dislike because it is in no way an accurate simulator for any weapon in the rapier/smallsword continuum.  ``Christian

Φ I grudgingly accept epee because other people want to use it (call it peer pressure) but it wouldn't hurt my feelings any if it went away permanently. In Aethelmearc, a kingdom with allowed tip cuts and no minimum draw lengths, an epee fight often feels like being inside a wild and out-of-control blender. I think the use of epee also discourages a historical game as fighters are tempted to use modern techniques that work well with a lighter blade.  ``Sasha

An Tir

Φ Foil - Too Dangerous. Epee - Not much safer.

Φ Light blades such as epees and foil encourage non-period technique.

Φ Dislike - Epee, you are asking for trouble when this is used. Breaks way too easily.  ``Caiaphas

Φ Foil and epee are not suited for rapier recreation. They are modern sport equipment.  ``Dormouse

Φ My kingdom doesn't use foil or epee. I'm glad it doesn't as they seem very far from period blades.  ``Alicia

Φ Epee and foil should be retired from the society - as they do not recreate what we are trying to do here - and they are unsafe (too liable to break).  ``Ramon

Ansteorra

Φ Foil. too flimsy.

Φ Foil is breakable and IMO DANGEROUS.

Φ Foil, too wimpy, not durable enough for what we use it for.  ``Claire

Φ Foils are the worst, but I started with one and also must fight our youth with them.

Φ Foil and epee are simply poor simulators, IMHO, and not as much fun or give the feel of "swordplay" for me.  ``Lionardo

Artemisia

Φ Foil, The risk of pointy edge if th eblade breaks.

Φ Epees and foils I loathe, since it is very hard to use period manuavers with them, and because it is to easy to use modern moves.

Atenveldt

Φ Hated the epee to light and fragile. once at Pennsic.

Φ Foils and epees are not rapiers period. I use them when I must.  ``John Patrick

Φ Epees are far too light to be a 16th century simulator. They also break too often, and when they do, they are dangerous on the field.

Φ I've only used schlager. I haven't used any of the others so I can't say whether or not I dislike them...altho, fighting with Epee & Foil just seems so "sissy" to me!  ``Bethia

Atlantia

Φ Dislike Foil; it is a weapon for children.  ``Renard
Φ Foil - Entirely too flexible during parries.
Φ I hate facing the foil, it is too damn whippy.

Φ Epees are just not period and tend to be disposable.
Φ Epee and foil because they are whippy, unrealistic and too light.

Φ I dislike Foil - not enough lateral blade-to-blade control for SCA fencing.
Φ I dislike the foil because of many reasons (hard to call a draw cut, whippy, etc).  ``Celric

Φ Foil resembles a car antenna at most and nothing else. Epee not ok for rapier. [Both are] dangerous and encourage improper techique.

Φ Foils don't look like [buttocks], and they do sound like metal, but they feel completely wrong due to weight and flexibility, just like fiberglass swords.  ``Rois

Φ Not fond of the foil, as it feel that it takes away from attempting a period style. You can get more bend and angle out of the weapon with fast movement.  ``Jean Claude

Φ Dislike foil because the blade it too light. My favorite fighting is in melees and foils just don't register well, plus the weight to parry someone is just not there.  ``Briana

Φ I dislike foil and epee (in that order) because the I feel the techniques used with these blades do not accurately recreate the techniques used during the 16th century.  ``Royce

Φ I don't really care for foils and even epees because they're very much not like a rapier at all. Although an epee mimics a smallsword fairly well, foils especially don't behave as a real sword and allow for some odd things to work which really shouldn't.  ``Dante P

Caid

Φ Epee--not a big fan. Not very period, very whippy.

Φ I dislike foil and epee because they are not period.  ``Felinah

Φ I don't like epee much, just doesn't really feel like a sword to me.

Φ Dislike: Epee, does wierd things when trying many period techniques.

Φ Foil - oh please, I'm a wire weeney! Epee breaks too often and is too light.  ``Alexander K

Φ I dislike the Epee as it doesn't represent any period form within the SCA time frame.

Φ Hate epees for being too whippy. Epees are too fast to do real period work, they are just a toy weapon.

Φ I hate foils it is not something that would of ever been used. not only that but i know NO ONE that uses one.

Φ I dislike epee. It has a higher likelyhood of breakage, and doesn't have the look or feel of the period that we attempt to recreate.

Φ Don't like foils. If I wanted to use a whip, I'd buy a bullwhip. I don't find a challenge with the epee. (Its okay, I just destroy people with it.)  ``Dalen

Φ Strongly dislike the epee, because its speed makes offhand parries and non-linear movement less useful. I can strip fence outside the SCA if i wanted to fight epee.  ``Todde

Φ Dislike epee, it is too light. I often have questions about blow calling on myself and my opponents. I also think that because of this it has a higher potential for injury.

Drachenwald

Φ Ban epees.

Φ Dislike epees, too thin and dangerous.

Φ I hate facing the foil, it is too damn whippy.  ``Gerhardt

Φ I hate foil and epee with a vengence, their too whippy.

Φ Dislike: Foils, epees (only resemble the Out of Period Smallsword).

Φ Hate: Foils!!! So far removed from historical rapiers and soo bendy.

Φ Dislike: foil - while good for beginners, I think it moves to quick, and is less interesting for spectators to watch.  ``Gerhardt

Φ I despise foils, because it just doesn't feel like a sword in my hand. I'm not very crazy about epees for the same reason, but I will play with them when necessary.  ``Muirghein

Φ I dislike foils and epees in the SCA mainly because they are not renaissance weapons. They're fun in modern sports fencing, but don't have a place in a reenactment scenario.  ``Guntram

Φ I hate Epee and think it should be banned ... it looks like [doo-doo], you can be a Olympic Fencer and come to a event and kick everyones [buttocks] without knowing anything about SCA rapier combat.  ``Gottfried

Ealdormere

Φ Foils look dumb.

East

Φ Dislike Foil. Too Whippy.  ``Jane
Φ Foils are too whippy for me.  ``Astridr

Φ Tripletts lite epees one lasted one fight and lost its trmper.
Φ I don't like foil, too soft to control a more heavy epee blade.

Φ I don't much care for foils. I think they are too light and break too easily.

Plus three generic unfavorable comments about foil.

Lochac

Φ Foils and Epee's to my mind should not be permitted, they cannot represent a pre 1600 weapon and are not designed for the types of combat stress that we subject them too.  ``Dameon

Meridies

Φ Foil- Dislike, while it served a purpose it is not even remotely close to rapier combat.

Midrealm

Φ Epees aren't really a good simulation.  ``Purple

Φ Foil mostly, for obvious reasons (not applicable to our goals).  ``Grimkirk

Φ I don't like epees or foils, because they're just not very much like a period rapier.  ``Christian

Φ Foils and epees are not accurate representations of a rapier. They are too light...

Φ I've only used epees in a couple practices, and I don't like how unrealistic they are as reproductions of period rapeirs.  ``Toshikage

Φ Agree with the Midrealms "heavy blades only" ruling wholeheartedly. Foils are an abomination in the SCA. Epees not far behind. Sorry.  ``Kriemhilt

No apology necessary here. As you can see...

Φ Foils/epees I hate. They don't feel, look or behave like the blades we're trying to reproduce as well as the heightened danger of a broken blade run through from them.  ``Uadahlrich

Northshield

Φ I hate the epee, it's a toy and not a weapon.  ``Fiskr
Φ Epee - too whippy, doesn't feel like a period-type weapon.

Outlands

Φ Foil (unsafe, tendency to break).  ``Antoine
Φ I love them all except foil I find them to wippie.  ``Rebekah
Φ As for foil, well, it's not polite to speak of outloud.  ``Volker

Φ I dislike epee - too light and fast for effective period technique.  ``Ildiko

Φ Foils and Epee's suck... they do not simulate a real period style blade.

Φ I dislike epee, because I believe them to be unsafe, and not a period reenactment blade.

Φ I really don't like the "musketeer"(double-wide epee) blades, as they seem to have as much "give" as rebar...  ``Carrick

Φ I would like to have the epee slowly removed from service, because it has a completely different feal to the style of fencing...too quick to use as a period rapier.

Trimaris

Φ Foil, too flimsy.

Φ I think epee shouldn't be used because it's really OOP.  ``Melangell

[end]

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