Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ Weapon form comments: Daggers
	Updated: 24 May 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for our mutual amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

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# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

The comments below were sent in response to Question 9.

Some of us like or love using daggers on their own.

Some of us (especially those who have studied the period techniques) enjoy using a dagger only as a secondary with a rapier.

The comments

Note: Any remarks from Yves in the comments below look like this. [Or like this.]

The topic headings below are: Aesthetics, Inexperience, Dagger: Unfavorable, Dagger: Neutral or Mixed, Dagger: Favorable, Double Dagger, Single Dagger, Dagger & rigid secondary, Dagger & non-rigid secondary, and Rules & realism.

For more comments and stats, see the links at the bottom of this page.
 

Rules & realism

Φ Anst. ~ Since we aren't allowed to perform actual dagger techniques in the SCA, it isn't something I enjoy either watching or participating in.  ``Aeron

Φ Aten. ~ Daggers, used by themselves, produce a style of combat that we cannot do in the SCA. The sort of artificial 'short rapier' goofy crap that people do is ugly and silly.  ``Senan

Φ Atl. ~ Dagger fighting throws the unrealistic elements of fencing into sharp relief. You'd really want to grab your opponent, frex, but you can't. Feh. [Frex = for example.]

Φ East ~ Dagger just can't be done in the SCA. I study Spanish navaja outside the SCA with Maestro Loriega and there is just too great a need for hand on body contact to do it right.  ``Armand

Φ Tri. ~ Dagger is also a bit foolish since in sca rules you cannot use a dagger as it was designed to be used. Basicly a dagger other than having apoint is simply rigid secondary.  ``Elric

Dagger & non-rigid secondary

Φ An Tir ~ Cloak and dagger is about the worst weapon combination imaginable.  ``Ruaidhri

Φ Atl. ~ Think Stupid should have been a category, I put those under Hate it for sake of ease. It is a matter of of being totally ineffective as a fighting style.

Φ Mer. ~ The SCA does not permit realistic dagger and cape uses. As such, they become silly activities when used on their own. The cape is silly all the time due to it's limited use. The dagger is somewhat realistic when used with a rapier, as it is not the primary weapon.

Dagger & rigid secondary

Φ An Tir ~ I find with heavy, rigid defensives paired with dagger, the increased caution needed fighting that close nullifies some of the defensive advantage - I'd rather just use open hand.  ``Vincent

Φ An Tir ~ I rather enjoyed dagger and buckler the one time I tried it, but it's too dangerous to allow at an SCA event: despite being extremely careful, I still rim-bashed my opponent several times. I don't even want to think about what could happen with dagger and baton!  ``Ruaidhri

Φ Aten. ~ Although I do enjoy a good bout of dagger and buckler with a skilled opponent, more often than not this devolves into brutality.

Φ Mer. ~ You risk getting your hand whacked in Dag/Bcklr way too much.

Single dagger

Φ AEth. ~ Dagger by itself it fun once in a while but usually ends up in someone getting hurt. I prefer the 'traditional' forms (single, dagger, buckler, cloak, case).  ``Jean

Φ An Tir ~ Using a dagger by itself is inherently risky as we are not trained for dagger fighting. Or more to the point this is *rapier combat* not dagger combat.  ``Dormouse

Φ Out. ~ I find single dagger somewhat silly - too few of my opponents offer any challenge, and I've observed a lot of "double kills" (which I believe is very period)  ``Guillaume

Double dagger

Φ Atl. ~ Double dagger fights are just silly and often brutal ~ often uncontrolled ~ brawling.  ``Duncan

Φ East ~ I like double dagger, but only against certain opponents.  ``Richild

Φ East ~ My experience is that double dagger (and most "dagger primary") fights get ugly.

Φ Loch. ~ Daggers, daggers, daggers, daggers, daggers - double baggers should have a "really really love it" check box.  ``Aldwin

Φ Mer. ~ Double dagger is not only not a period form but also unbearably ugly.

Φ Mid. ~ Where is the "why" button? like why fight 2 daggers?

Dagger: Favorable

Φ Aten. ~ I have some health problems that prevent me from enjoying anything "rapier and whatever" as much as I would like, so I tend to fight with my dagger as much as I can get away with!  ``Bethia

Φ Atl. ~ Knives are AWESOME. More people need to love knives.  ``Dante P

Φ Atl. ~ My flexidagger is useful because I am short and people forget it's there. I can get in close with it before my opponant notices.  ``Iseulte

Φ East ~ Did I mention the fact that I like Dagger?  ``Jeanne

Her favorite forms: dagger, two dagger, and dagger with cape/cloak.

Φ Nor. ~ Get tired of people [overreacting] about the supposed dangers of fighting "case of daggers".

Φ Nor. ~ One dule I fought in, I was Rapier/Dagger against Case, I lost my Rapier hand, so I tossed the Rapier aside and finished it with dagger against case, it was great, ended in a double kill, it lasted close to 4 minutes with both of us locked in combat 95% of the time, probably one of the most exciting dules I've had.  ``Gabrielle

Φ Out. ~ DAGGER, DAGGER, DAGGER!!  ``Seuilla

Dagger: Neutral or mixed

Φ An Tir ~ While I enjoy playing with single or double dagger, I don't think the SCA rules allow for effective knife combat.  ``Ruaidhri

Φ An Tir ~ I feel dagger fighting ... is a totally different fighting form than rapier fighting... As we are assumed to have a certain degree of nobility within the SCA, I find it hard to put consider dagger fighting appropriate. I tend to feel it's a 'novelty' that could be pulled out occasionally for fun but shouldn't be part of mainstream fighting.— Alicia

Φ Anst. ~ People tend to fight dagger fights as if it was honorable combat. IMO that is so unrealistic that it is obsurd.

Φ Caid ~ I really like fighting with only daggers, but I do not enjoy tournements where people who have not practiced this form are forced to select it, more for safety and comfort than playablility.  ``Eogan

Φ Caid ~ I really do not enjoy dagger fighting as a tourney form. Only ruffians carry daggers to fight with. We are nobles and should not practice this form in a tourney format. On the other hand, I do enjoy fighting dagger only in a non-tourney form.

Φ Mid. ~ A lot of these combo's, particularly dagger and an off hand parry device, and double dagger, are not really fought around here at all.

Φ Nor. ~ My attitude toward dagger only fights is getting better with newer daggers (safe-flex). Older TCA rebar daggers got people hurt.  ``Fiskr

Dagger: Unfavorable

Φ An Tir ~ Dagger work does not recreate the rapier art we're theoretically trying to create. Dagger work without grappling is pointless and stupid, and a dagger being used as a rapier can get [rather] dangerous. IMHO.  ``Gabrielle

Φ Anst. ~ I was going to put all of the dagger and something non rapier as "don't like" and only do "double Daggar" as hate. But then decided not to since they really aren't that much better. I am assuming that these are starter weapon combinations and not something resorted to once a rapier has been lost. [Well, no, the wider scope was intentional.]

Φ Caid ~ Not much interested in knife fighting.

Φ Caid ~ Don't like dagger as much as people seem to get "spiked" with quillions alot.  ``Alexander K

Φ Caid ~ Dagger-only bouts tend to generate aggressive grappling and blow-acknowlegement problems.  ``Felinah

Φ Caid ~ I just like fighting! My only objection to some of the dagger combinations is that they can get very ugly and I've fought some people who had safety issues, particularly with dagger and baton.  ``Grainne

Φ Tri. ~ Not huge on dagger fighting.  ``Cillian

Inexperience

Φ AEth. ~ I have never tried fencing with dagger only.

Φ Atl. ~ Don't have any experience with anything other than rapier and dagger.

Aesthetics?

Φ East ~ Daggers are pretty...  ``Lilia

[end]

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Original page posted: October 18, 2004 • Last tweaked: April 27, 2009
 
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