Ýves’ big SCA rapier survey #1 ~ “Let’s do more than just fence” (add spice)
	Updated: 24 May 2005

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Policy blurb

By default, authors of comments sent in response to this survey are named only by their permission. Usually, other people mentioned in a comment are named only with their permission as well. Each comment represents only what the author typed in for the survey at the time.

» This survey was conducted during August-September 2003. Things change over time. «

Some comments were edited for content. Certain harsh words have been changed for our mutual amusement. Opinions expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect those of the surveyor.

To get YOUR name listed with YOUR comments, just give me permission. See the email link at the bottom of the page. Let me know your SCA name and kingdom (as of Aug/Sep 2003), and I'll add the attribution to your entries.

# of Responses
by Kingdom
 
AEth.  = 34/235
Anst.  = 36/240
An Tir = 56/347
Art.   = 12/124
Aten.  = 27/460
Atl.   = 60/425
Caid   = 49/400
Drach. = 21/76
Eald.  = 12/77
East   = 46/480
Loch.  = 22/120
Mer.   = 27/140
Mid.   = 52/640
Nor.   = 25/164
Out.   = 26/214
Tri.   = 46/237
West   = 14/70
Unk.   = 2

The gist

Based on the responses:

• We're at least tolerant of adding some spice (variety, silliness, etc.) to make SCA fencing more interesting when appropriate (not at serious occasions, like Queen's ______) and in moderation.
• For spice, we favor tactical melee scenarios and "special" rules.
• We do not favor scenarios and parrying items that people find "silly".
• We enjoy some variety overall but also remember that the SCA is (at least intended to be) about history.

Question 3. “Let’s do more than just fence”

What do you really like to add to SCA fencing? Check all that apply, if any.

(Note: a scenario is a melee with goals and rules above that of merely eliminating one's opponents.)

You can click on a column header in the table below to sort the data by that column
(if JavaScript is enabled in your browser).

KEY

Yes: Number of respondents who checked this on their survey.

Opn: Total number of respondents who checked this on their survey for either this question
or Question 3. Meaning, they had a strong opinion, pro or con.

% Opn: (Yes ÷ Opn). Of the people who had an opinion either way, how many answered Yes?

% All: (Yes ÷ All). Of everyone who took the survey, how many answered Yes?

I did not give specific examples of silly, extraneous, or special in the survey.
I left them open to individual interpretation on purpose.

Synonyms for extraneous include irrelevant, superfluous, inappropriate, and unrelated.

The comments

Note: Any remarks from Yves in the comments below look like this. [Or like this.]

The topic headings below include: Special rules, Silly secondaries, RBGs, Fun, Flair, Events, Entertainment, Diversity, Challenge, and more.

Other comments on this topic are on separate pages. See the links at the bottom of this page.
 

Choice picks

Φ Drach. ~ When you die as often as I do it's important to die well.  ``Kári

Φ Atl. ~ In special rules - not 1st blood but first good wound, killing them is a double loss.

Φ Out. ~ Speeches, boasts, humorous comments, etc. are too rare, in my experience. (Whether theatrics or extraneous talking, it should be on topic and should be done with the fencing, not instead of fencing - some of us are waiting to get on the field!)  ``Guillaume

Φ Tri. ~ To each and their own, I dont have to agree or disagree with anyone. just come play and have fun. thats why we all show up , pay and event fee, work and sweat, and live to tell about it later. enjoy the duel. and afterwards lets go have some tea. where theres tea , there civility.

Serious things people would like to see more of...

Φ Anst. ~ More oversight over rhino-hides at all levels.

Φ Aten. ~ Let's add correct technique and a level of training that goes beyond "Here's a sword. Don't hit too hard."  ``John Patrick

Φ Mer. ~ The zen moment.

Φ Mid. ~ Tips and suggestions for improvement.

Φ [Withheld] ~ Better planning of rapier activities.

Challenge

Φ AEth. ~ I like scenarios that challenge the fencers in ways other than what a double-elim tourney would.  ``Miguel

Φ Anst. ~ I dont think I would take out any because it adds to the difficulty of the fight, regardless what it is. It could be so silly that you cant stop laughting to fight or a bigger sheld to get around.

Φ Aten. ~ Anything that increases the difficulty for me, while still retaining combative application. It's a martial art, and a deadly one- to treat it as less, is, to me, a disservice.  ``Senan

Φ Caid ~ Generally, things that increase the challenge and tactical difficulty of combat are cool.  ``Todde

Φ Loch. ~ Stuff where you have to think a fair bit about what you're doing.  ``Gregory

Diversity, variety, all

Φ An Tir ~ The more variety we can add to the game the better.  ``Caiaphas

Φ An Tir ~ Within the scope of rapier combat, I am very open to trying variations...  ``Vincent

Φ An Tir ~ I like creativity in scenarios. I think that SCA fighting in general takes itself too seriously. Interesting parry weapons should be d'regeur. Death throes are wonderful.

Φ Anst. ~ I have, at one time or another enjoyed all of these things in question #2. Let's do it all, from DiGrassi, and Saviolo, to List Babe's choice!  ``Jacques

Φ Art. ~ I like all of the above, they add variety and entertainment value, after all, it is a game.  ``KyneWynn

Φ Atl. ~ Diversity is a fabu thing...

Φ Atl. ~ I just like to fence. Don't care how, who, why, what or where.  ``Iseulte

Φ Atl. ~ Babies, heads, fish, bring it on! Also, not every event need be a tournament.  ``Dante P

Φ Caid ~ Blah who would not want these things? they make it more fun :-D

Φ East ~ I will Fence as long as there is a sword to be held against me.  ``Santiago

Φ East ~ Repeating the same styles of fencing/tourneys gets dull after a while. Variety is a good thing!  ``Maire

Φ East ~ I pretty much like all the "silly" stuff that goes along with SCA fencing. It all adds flair to the fencing.

Φ East ~ I think there should be variety. I do not think that all SCA fencing needs to be exactly the same everywhere.  ``Brita

Φ Mer. ~ Bring it all on!

Φ West ~ Just like heavy and missle combat, the full spectrum of battle ...both serious and silly ... should be available to rapier combatants, as well.

Plus generic comments from: AEthelmearc 4, Artemisia 1, Atenveldt 1, Atlantia 1, Caid 3, Drachenwald 2, East 1, Northshield 1, and the West 1.

Entertainment, theatrics, persona

Φ AEth. ~ As to the silly side of fencing, I live in a region that has had to claw it's way into being accepted, in many cases it was our ability to entertain that broke the ice. No it might not be historically acurate but it would be a part of our SCA culture that I would miss were it eliminated.

Φ An Tir ~ By theatrics, I mean good, period, in-persona behavior. I'm not that big a fan of cheap Hollywood stuff.  ``Ruaidhri

Φ An Tir ~ I don't mind theatrics when it is all light hearted. When they start to get tedious or insulting. that is where i draw the line. I have only seen that once or twice.  ``Cormac

Φ Atl. ~ How about some actual role-play... use that persona you have...  ``Marcus

Φ Caid ~ But there is always room for theatrics! Though what do you mean by "extraneous talking"? Is there such a thing that isn't covered by "theatrics"? [Sure, any talking during combat one considers extraneous, but not theatrical.] I wouldn't call it "extraneous" talking ... talking is *good* during a bout. Unless you are refering to the habit that some people have of having to talk about *every* blow that might have come *close* ... then it's just annoying.  ``Grainne

Φ East ~ Progressive scenarios (many bouts of fencing) that tell a story with an audience watching.

Φ Loch. ~ I love hteatrics and RBG's they add to the specatator apppeal and thats allways a GOOD thing.

Φ Mid. ~ Theatrics is a fine line, too-- I try to keep my own game from being too silly, but my salutes, challenges, charges, etc are often deliberately theatrical.  ``Christian

Φ Nor. ~ Part of what makes this fun is the Theatrics and talking, we are all about the show.

Banter, chat, wit

Φ Atl. ~ I say the more wit the better. Bad wit however is annoying as all get out and will make me wish to slit my own throat.  ``Gypsy Boy

Φ Caid ~ I don't mind a BIT of chat- this is the SCA, not an olympic fencing meet. But when folks pass that fine line between reenactment and being ludicrous, I get a bit irritated. A short Elizabethan retort or two can add to the feel, however ("Have at ye green sickness jackanape, etc).  ``David

Φ Loch. ~ Insults and taunts ... are really fun.

Φ Out. ~ Witty banter!  ``Antoine

Φ Out. ~ Both of these [theatrics and extraneous talk] can add to the element of pagentry that makes a bout fun to watch for non-fencer and fencer alike.  ``Diana

Φ Tri. ~ I enjoy most any scenario thone out there. The only one that I have ever had a real problem with is "Rapier Wit" scenarios where the fencers get points for insulting or complimenting their opponent as they fight.  ``Cillian

Death throes, falling down

Φ An Tir ~ Theatrics have their place, but watching my opponent throw himself across the room because he wants to earn the Best Death Award is distasteful.  ``Laurin

Φ Anst. ~ Something that has gone out of favor recently, FALLING DOWN WHEN 'KILLED'!  ``Henri

Φ Caid ~ Death throes which take little extra time and energy and give the audience something to keep them coming back.  ``Lot

Required/optional participation

Φ AEth. ~ Theatrics are good for demos. they do impeded those who are not inclined.

Φ Anst. ~ I like the format to invite personna play but not force you to. I also don't like too much to distract from the actual fighting. It should inhance the fencing not overshadow it. I don't like things that are deeming.

Φ Drach. ~ I'm quite shy, and find it hard to even fall down "dead" As long as I'm not expected to "ham act" any scenes on the field, I have no problem with it.

Φ Mer. ~ Like to watch it, don't like to do it.

Φ Mid. ~ I think all of the above are fun, but sometimes you can't tell the people that are going to be touchy about doing or using any of this stuff.  ``Catalin

Φ Mid. ~ I enjoy watching others' theatrics, but want them to be optional since I'm not comfortable doing this. If they are a requirement, I won't participate in the scenario.  ``Kriemhilt

Φ Mid. ~ As far as the extraneous talking... I don't care if others do it (like Alexander de Seton... can't imagine him not talking) but don't force someone to talk as part of the bout.

Events

Φ Art. ~ Come to Uprising. [Thanks, I might just do that some year.]

Φ Eald. ~ I enjoy the scenario portion of fencing Berus's Barroom Brawl is my 'can't miss' event.... [Hosted by Skeldergate. Looks like fun.]

Flair

Φ AEth. ~ Period approach, pomp/grandeur, fighting for patrons, etc.  ``Corwin

Φ Caid ~ I think these all add new and fresh angles to the game we play, just fencing is fine, but keeping it new and exciting sometimes and showing off skill beyond just being able to kill someone with a sword and dagger is a fine thing.  ``Lot

Φ Mid. ~ I preferred it when it was just a courtly display, and not unrealistic mass melees which are more Hollywood "Three Musketeers" than history.

Fun, interesting, less serious, silly

Φ AEth. ~ The items mentioned above are some of my favorite things about fencing in the SCA - why would I want to keep them out of the program? :)

Φ An Tir ~ Sometimes we take ourselves *too* seriously...  ``Laurin

Φ Anst. ~ [I'm against] snobbery that would prevent other people from doing silly things, talking, theatrics, guns, etc., etc., on the field, just because someone personally don't like them.

Φ Aten. ~ I also don't care to fight with folks who take things way too seriously..I'm of the "I do this for fun" crowd!  ``Bethia

Φ Aten. ~ If I wish to "get serious" about fencing I have many opportunities so to do. One of the things that keeps me coming back year after year in the SCA fencing community is the "random fun" involved.  ``Egan

Φ Aten. ~ The only thing that ever gets my goat is the win at any cost(including that of fun) attitude that sometimes gets shoved around. Especially near wartime and during war scenarios. I feel its more important to remember that we are playing a game. I like anything that has the possibility of making the game more interesting and fun.  ``Ryan

Φ Atl. ~ All can be fun if well used.

Φ Atl. ~ I generally enjoy everything, but do have more difficulty with "very serious fights". I tend to enjoy fun fights, and brawling more.

Φ Caid ~ I like RBG's and think theatrics should be encouraged.  ``Johann

Φ Drach. ~ Silly is fun!

Φ East ~ Bring in silly stuff....we're here to have fun!

Φ East ~ Sometimes silly is good. Not always, mind you, but sometimes, if for no other reason than that it helps keep us from taking ourselves too seriously (not that anyone in the SCA would ever do THAT...:P)  ``Jeanne

Φ Loch. ~ I fence because its fun, anything that makes it more fun is welcome.

Φ Loch. ~ Fencing should be fun. I personally find that a lot of people are trying to make it too serious. I am also an authorised Heavy combatant & Light combatant (Lochac Light) and enjoy all 3 combat forms because they are FUN.  ``Hanbal

Φ Mid. ~ I don't do much of the sillier things, but I see their value.  ``Zygmunt

Φ Mid. ~ All of these are fine with me. They help keep things interesting. The only one that even comes close to really annoying me is the extraneous talking during combat and even that can be entertaining.

Φ Nor. ~ I like all these things. It makes it more fun.  ``Luisa

Guns/RBG’s

Φ Art. ~ No reason to prevent any of th above, although I do tend to get hit with rubber bands a lot. The honor of the scarf you know.

Φ Aten. ~ I'm not always fond of the RBG's, but sometimes they do add a little extra fun in war melees.

Φ Aten. ~ I tend to worry about some band guns in that they may not be strung tight enough and not felt sufficiently.  ``Lann-Valdis

Φ Atl. ~ RBGs need limits, or we don't actually get to FENCE!

Φ Atl. ~ Its all fun, but, I least like the rubber band guns as it takes skill too far out of the equation.  ``Nikolai

Φ Atl. ~ I own and use RBGs, but only because I refuse to be outgunned. If they aren't allowed, I have little complaint. .. They CAN be fun in the right scenarios though, like when attackers have respawn and the defenders have RBGs and no respawn. Then, they're great.  ``Dante P

Φ Caid ~ I'm on the fence about RBGs- they are a poor simulator of guns, but there is no arguing that guns were a major factor in combat of the time. Ah, if we could only do blackpowder paintball!  ``David

Φ Drach. ~ RBG's I like, but sparingly. I plan on buying a brace of 'em but they really are such an advantage in as melee that I feel their use oughta' be rationed.  ``Cernac

Φ Mid. ~ These were just legalized here in the Midrealm, so I'd like to see more done with them.  ``Robert

Φ Mid. ~ While I'm not universally against RBG's, I prefer to see them restrained somewhat (limited shot, reload times, some scenarios without guns).  ``Christian

Φ Nor. ~ The Rubber band guns add to the realism of what it was like.  ``David

Keep it simple

Φ AEth. ~ I believe in keep it simple stupid. It eliminates most mistakes and misunderstandings.

Φ Atl. ~ Keep any special rules SIMPLE!  ``Marcus

Φ East ~ Special rules can get confusing.

Φ East ~ Excessive rules really are something I prefer not to have. The game should be simple, complexity makes things, well, complicated and less fun.  ``Ronan

Φ Mid. ~ I don't mind any of the above scenarios, but I object when the scenarios become to complicated.

Silly secondaries

Φ AEth. ~ Though if I were king, I wouldn't ban [silly scenarios and silly parring items] either.  ``Miguel

Φ Drach. ~ I like almost all of the above, and only checked the puppets thing because I can't think of any period use of them (but can be taught, if appl). Nothing is as important as sheer skill. Oh, and gorgeous garb. :D

Φ East ~ Some silly parrying items don't disturb me at all, since it's not impossible I could be fighting against someone who grabbed the first thing at hand to parry with, and it happened to be a chicken.

Φ Nor. ~ I like the silly parrying items because, for example the stuffed animals, who knows in reality one might just pick up a small dog and use it. the rest of the stuff I like a lot.  ``David

Φ Nor. ~ Silly parrying items is not my fav. to deal with because it is very distracting to me, which ofcource is why people like to use them, however, I do not go as far as to say that I do not want them involved in my fencing, it's fun and that is the point. I really just love to fence, I do not care about the rules as far as if there are any or not, I follow what there is and go with it.  ``Gabrielle

Φ Out. ~ Silly parrying items are OK, but I don't use them much myself (although I did once use an off-hand clump of spinach to fight "Florentine" - and win the baronial Premier Blade competition!)  ``Guillaume

Special rules

Φ AEth. ~ Adding constraints can be an interesting challenge. Rules-retained tourneys can be a very interesting twist.  ``Jean

I think the respondent meant "wounds-retained" here...

Φ An Tir ~ Don't object to random weapons, just limited targets.  ``Argan

Φ Aten. ~ I really like the special rules.. I love things like...blind fencer with bells on the lead foot, but all the rest as well.  ``Lann-Valdis

Blind fencer?!

Φ Atl. ~ Limited tagets are fine if they reflect things like armor worn that in reality is not.

Φ Drach. ~ Special rules should be used only every now and then, otherwise they're not special anymore and become just an addition to the standard rules.  ``Guntram

Φ Out. ~ I don't care for random weapons much, but I do like limited targets.

Φ Out. ~ In Drachenwald if you loose a hand, you do not loose the whole arm, just whatever that is in that hand. You may still parry with that hand (closed fist though). I would like to see this in the rapier rules.

Φ Out. ~ Special rules can be good. I like first blood, on occasion. I prefer any random weapons draws to be symetrical - dagger vs. rapier and dagger seems too silly. The worst is reversing hands - you must use rapier in your off hand and any auxilliary implement in your primary hand: if this were real, why wouldn't I switch? Limited targets should have some plausible cause - why are we limited? Are we just stupid?  ``Guillaume

Talk talk

Φ An Tir ~ What would you consider extraneous talking during bouts? I could do without the drawn out gab fest afterward of whether a blow was valid or not... during is fine.  ``Gabrielle

Me personally: Speech or song that is obviously out of Period AND meant to distract because of that. Not too cool. (However, I'm guilty of having done it too. Oops.) I prefer that such vocal distractions be done in persona, entertaining, brief, and done while fencing — not instead of fencing.

[end]

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Original page posted: October 18, 2004 • Last tweaked: May 3, 2009
 
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